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GURPS Elric / Eternal champion

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  • #31
    That would be an interesting collective project .......

    And i agree, we must begin by the universe ......

    Some classical questions to answer :


    1 - Which is the topic of the play ?

    2 - What the characters do ?

    3 - What the players (including the GM ) do ?

    4 - In what the universe of gaming (or the absence of universe of play if necessary) reinforces the theme of the game ?

    5 - How the generation of character does reinforce the theme of the play?

    6 - Which types of behavior/styles of play are rewarded (or punished) in the game ?

    7 - How the behavior/styles of role play is rewarded or punished in the game ?

    8 - How are the responsibilities for narration and “control” in the game shared?

    9 - What in the game draws the attention, the engagement and the partcipation of the players (in light what in the game is made to interest them) ?

    10 - What are mechanics of resolution of the game ?

    11 - In what this mechanics does reinforce the theme of the game ?

    12 - Do the characters evolve/move in the game ? If so, how?

    13 - How the evolution of the characters (or the absence of evolution if necessary) reinforces the theme of the play?

    14 - Which sort(s) of effect (s) the game is supposed to produce in the gamers ?

    15 - Which part(s) of the game received a lighting or a detailed attention and why?

    16 - Which part of the game interests you more and why?

    17 - Where your game takes along the players when others games cannot/does not want it? 1

    18 - Which are the objectives of edition of the game ?

    19 - Who is your target “marketing”?

    A very long and heavy work .. and it seems it is currently made in some other place ?

    Comment


    • #32
      If people really want to have a go at developing an EC RPG here I'd be happy to create a sub-forum here for the idea to be discussed further. Just let me know if that would be useful.
      _"For an eternity Allard was alone in an icy limbo where all the colours were bright and sharp and comfortless.
      _For another eternity Allard swam through seas without end, all green and cool and deep, where distorted creatures drifted, sometimes attacking him.
      _And then, at last, he had reached the real world – the world he had created, where he was God and could create or destroy whatever he wished.
      _He was supremely powerful. He told planets to destroy themselves, and they did. He created suns. Beautiful women flocked to be his. Of all men, he was the mightiest. Of all gods, he was the greatest."

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Morgan Kane
        That would be an interesting collective project .......

        And i agree, we must begin by the universe ......

        Some classical questions to answer :
        A lot of questions indeed! ;)

        I don't know what the rest think but I am personally up for it. I am somewhat busy this week though, trying to finish up a dissertation, but starting on Monday I can start digging up my notes and putting them down on a word processor, as currently, most of it are hand written.

        Comment


        • #34
          I'd also be interested in chipping in an opinion or two. I'd also love to hear what the outcome is of the developments that Mike has alluded to. Patience would stand me in good stead there, I suppose...
          The name that can be named is not the true name.

          Comment


          • #35
            Kommando and I hashed some ideas back and forth some time ago in
            this thread:

            http://www.multiverse.org/fora/showthread.php?t=1948

            I would be willing to work on such a community project.

            Ian
            Diplomacy: The ability to tell someone to
            go to hell so that they will look forward to
            making the trip.

            Comment


            • #36
              I should also state that I abandoned d20 since the more I started poking
              into it and finding what I would prefer changed, the more it wound up
              looking like BRP.

              I have never been a big fan of the Storytelling system. However, a fresh
              new approach to core mechanics might be indeed worth looking into.

              Ian
              Diplomacy: The ability to tell someone to
              go to hell so that they will look forward to
              making the trip.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Ian
                I should also state that I abandoned d20 since the more I started poking
                into it and finding what I would prefer changed, the more it wound up
                looking like BRP.

                I have never been a big fan of the Storytelling system. However, a fresh
                new approach to core mechanics might be indeed worth looking into.

                Ian
                As far as the rules system goes, I'd say that this is a key consideration.

                If ideas for a system wind up looking just very similar to d20 or BRP, you might as well use/mod those, rather than reinventing the wheel. Both are easily modified systems and can be used to model a variety of genres and game styles.

                I would strongly advise against using a dice-pool system like the Storytelling system. In my opinion, it paints with too broad strokes and isn't well suited to reproducing the kinds of action, events and stories that feature in EC fiction. There are few ideas in that system, however, that might be of use in an EC game. The virtues/vices element could be a good model for dealing with allegiances to law or chaos, for example (as an off-hand idea, not as a concrete suggestion).

                It might well be worthwhile to devise a fresh set of mechanics that reproduce the core elements of characters from EC fiction. You could even step away from the concept of "stats" and base characters on different elements (such as has been done in recent "indie" games, for example). Plenty of options.
                The name that can be named is not the true name.

                Comment


                • #38
                  So, do you guys want a sub-forum to pursue this project in then?
                  _"For an eternity Allard was alone in an icy limbo where all the colours were bright and sharp and comfortless.
                  _For another eternity Allard swam through seas without end, all green and cool and deep, where distorted creatures drifted, sometimes attacking him.
                  _And then, at last, he had reached the real world – the world he had created, where he was God and could create or destroy whatever he wished.
                  _He was supremely powerful. He told planets to destroy themselves, and they did. He created suns. Beautiful women flocked to be his. Of all men, he was the mightiest. Of all gods, he was the greatest."

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by David Mosley
                    So, do you guys want a sub-forum to pursue this project in then?
                    If there is a genuine interest all-round in doing something with this, then I say go for it. As mentioned above, my only reservation is that some change in the licensing situation is about to take place and any work on a system will be made redundant by an "official" release. Still, could be fun all the same...

                    Originally posted by Ian
                    Kommando and I hashed some ideas back and forth some time ago in
                    this thread:

                    http://www.multiverse.org/fora/showthread.php?t=1948
                    Just had a read through that thread. Some great ideas (apart from the abysmal GNS rearing its ugly head), which shows that there are a number of possible ways to model the EC fiction in game form.
                    The name that can be named is not the true name.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Morgan Kane - that is an impressive list of questions that rightly
                      addresses many concerns of both the mechanics and market-ability of a
                      novel RPG. I will think about them and return with some thoughts.

                      I hope this makes reasonable sense, I am fairly opiated from cold
                      medication, so it makes sense to me, but may be a mong's mouthing.

                      To expand a bit here, I am thinking most games suffer from being too
                      goal-oriented. A very reduced understanding of game theory breaks all
                      systems into one of two camps.

                      1. A game with defined goals or objectives where success is measured
                      against the accomplishment of these defined goals or objectives - usually
                      with temporal constraints. E.g., levels, completing a "dungeon", and
                      other episodic motifs.

                      2. A game with no clearly defined goal or objective other than the
                      continued participation within the game. E.g., survival of the player's
                      character, race, world, etc.

                      Within the EC Multiverse I have found a great deal of how the game-play
                      goes depends on a few things:

                      Is the EC for the plane currently operating in which game-play is
                      occurring? In many ways, the advent of the EC is rather like pressing
                      the button on the timer that starts a count-down to destruction of the
                      established orders. Soon after the EC begins operating social
                      mechanisms and even survival of the player characters starts falling
                      into grave peril. I was not overly impressed with the turn-based Avalon
                      Hill game based on the Elric Saga. What is the enjoyment of playing a
                      game where the outcome is certain?

                      Can "Fate" or "Destiny" be thwarted? Mr. Moorcock provides us with a
                      bit of a sticky wicket on this one. The choices of the EC can have
                      impact on the future, but the future also can be influenced external
                      force (i.e., the Conjunction of the Million Spheres, the events in other
                      planes of the Multiverse, the interference of "gods"). We know that the
                      EC can be killed, usually not easy, but it can happen; what happens if
                      the characters choose to assassinate the EC? Should they be allowed?

                      Because I had no clear idea of these things, I chose to allow the
                      players to pursue a game plot to divert the advent of Elric as EC and
                      attempt a renaissance of Melniboné. This was not canon, but it was
                      something they wanted to do. In this instance, I found that the
                      enjoyment of the players and being faithful to the canon was impossible.
                      Any genuine effort to make the game entertaining will have to address
                      this either as alternate play rules or as a constructed set of rules
                      contained within the general rules.

                      It is that question of irresistible force. Are the various dooms
                      visited on the world of the Multiverse described by Mr. Moorcock
                      alterable? Or is Fate an irresistible force?

                      Are gods universally bad cookies, or do they come in the full spectrum
                      of benevolent to malevolent? To be honest - I rather think of the Lords
                      of Law and the Lords of Chaos as being akin to the Greek gods and
                      goddesses, basically just "bigger" humans with more awareness and
                      powers. So I never felt particularly compelled to make Arioch into a
                      caricature of human ideas of evil, nor Donblas a caricature of human
                      ideas of goodness. In my estimation, the LoL and LoC are caught in an
                      eternal series of scrums on the pitch that is the Multiverse; and it
                      poses -- in my mind -- a simple question: do they want triumph for their
                      team? And if they do, why? Could it be that they are every bit as
                      tired and dissatisfied with the limitations enforced from above as the
                      mortals? Knowing this would give a game master great insight into how
                      to use the LoL and LoC in the story-line.

                      Are "Time" and "Fate" gods? It is hinted in Elric that they may well
                      be. Chance and Circumstance. What is a fair method to incorporate
                      free-will in a system of chance and circumstance? Do the LoL and LoC
                      have any chance at all of success? If not, why then do they struggle?

                      For ease of understanding in this, is the EC a god in mortal clothing?
                      A third axis in the geometry of Fate? We are told at times the EC
                      serves the Cosmic Balance, others Law, others, one must presume Chaos.
                      So is the EC a "specialist hit man" for hire by the local under-dog?

                      Eol - although it was not my intention to suggest a group project, I
                      am not adverse to pursuing such a project. I have some considerable
                      experience in writing RPG rules from my years of hammering out a
                      method to play in the world of Elric with the vagaries of
                      multidimensional travel - the impact of shifting magic/physics on game
                      play - dozens of races (mostly not for players to use as characters)

                      I noted in the other (older) thread - a mention of a card-based game. I personally
                      have no especially love for this form of gamer's crack; and would prefer to
                      address the game in a more or less literary approach of rule books, references,
                      and the normal panoply of RPG paraphernalia. I concede it would probably
                      have a run-go limited success, but believe that market is driven my novelty
                      more than anything.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Very interesting points there Monshanjik.

                        The 'canon' vs player anjoyment is a big bone of contention and there is no clear answer as to what one is to do. My take on the matter is that a definite answer is not really required. All these questions you posit can be very well provied the drive for an enjoyable campaign IMO.

                        Questions like is EC a god in mortal skin, does he serve Law, CHaos or balance, can fate be thwarted, etc., I think make extremely powerful driving forces for playing out a campaign. These could be the very issues that the characters are trying to resolve for example. The way I like to see it, is that in this way a RP game is not just some weird pasttime activity where you sit around with some friends, roll dice and pretend to be someone else. It can also have a much more significant role in allowing you to explore different possibilities, ways of thikning, philosophies and so on.

                        To put it in another way apart from the fun factor of having a good time it also provides a sort of intellectual journey. Now if you excuse me here I will throw in some of my personal views on the matter which you do not need to share. But I am of the opinion that games of any sort are not simple entertainement tools. Through games (of any sort) , in the loose sense, we learn. They serve a didactic role as well as one of entertainment. Basically a game for me is something that provides a fun learning experience.

                        To bring this back on topic, being able to play in a EC RPG allows one to reflect on the issues raised by Mr Moorcock as an insider which has an active role in that setting, rather than just as a reader.

                        The fact that all these hard questions exist is what for me makes the idea of a EC RPG so attractive and unique. You don't go about rescuing princesses from towers and kills orcs untile you get the +5 longsword of awesome ownage or whatever. You are a player in a cosmic drama and you are after asnwers to serious and important philsophical problems which have an impact on the working of the whole of creation.


                        That of course does not asnwer the problem of what to do what players go against the canon as is depicted in the books. But I think this is something best left to the individual narrator/GM. If their interpretation is that fate is irresistible then they can always conjuer some sort of Deus ex machina to rectify things. On the other hand, they might wish to allow players access to alternative realities which can on its own be an interesting 'exploration'.
                        Then again one can maintain a sort of compromising position by fudging things a bit by claiming that within the multiverse all alternate possibilities are realised within different planes of existence. If they want to take that further they can even claim that this sort of 'branching' inevitably cancels out and the net result is what we get in the 'canon'.

                        So to summarise, the way I see it all the questions you posed would be ideal for focusing the characters adventures around. As such they are a great plus for us and not so much a problem.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          YAY! we got our subforum!!!!!

                          ...and there was much rejoice!

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Eol - you raise a very surprising and welcome perspective. I have been
                            re-reading The Eternal Champion and The Silver Warriors the
                            past few evenings - I have never been able to secure a copy of
                            The Blood Red Game or The Sundered Worlds in the USA,
                            in fact in no book shop where I have asked for this title has been able to find a listing
                            of recent pressings. Yet, some of my questions were answered about Fate/Destiny
                            - these answers are pretty bleak.



                            Kamelion - I appreciate that much is taking place between Mr. Moorcock's
                            agent and the game developers. But I hope that they will at least take a moment
                            to look at this discussion to learn what the fans think and perhaps learn from the
                            mistakes of the past. And it harms none for us to discuss a game for the whole
                            Multiverse of the EC.

                            I doubt that the game developers will release a whole game in one volume anyway.
                            The way I understand it, they operate along the lines of releasing as little as
                            possible in a series of high-priced volumes so one ends up with 20+ volumes just
                            to play the game LOL. So no matter how much we discuss there will always be
                            something for us to contribute to them and to one another.

                            In all, I believe Mr. Moorcock should have the final word and I hope that our
                            discussion may help him to decide.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Let us try ?

                              1 - Which is the topic of the play ?
                              to give the gamers a feeling of being in the Moorgcock universe

                              2 - What the characters do ?
                              complex : either they are " ordinary " people taken in the cosmic struggle either they are directly actors of it, acting as incarnation of the EC or his friends ?

                              3 - What the players (including the GM ) do ?
                              The characters makes moral choices and act upon it fighting the destiny !

                              At the begining, characters seems to be in an ordinary game but little by little, they discover that the universe is not what they believe and that the stakes are major

                              The GM is the guide and referree

                              4
                              - In what the universe of gaming (or the absence of universe of play if necessary) reinforces the theme of the game ?
                              The universe is central to the game ! The cunjonction of the million of spheres is nearing ! What will be the next universe ?

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Ian
                                Kommando and I hashed some ideas back and forth some time ago in
                                this thread:

                                http://www.multiverse.org/fora/showthread.php?t=1948

                                I would be willing to work on such a community project.

                                Ian
                                Whoa, talk about a blast from the past. I had pretty much forgotten about that thread. Some interesting ideas though, and yeah since that time I have become quite interested in the True 20 system as well as its big brother, Mutants and Masterminds (which use the same base mechanic).

                                I know that the argument of which system to use is going to be a recurring theme, and will likely not be resolved until sometime after Chaosium loses its hold over MM's intellectual property. Myself, I am not as enamored with d20 as I was particularly with the advent of True 20, which I am likely going to blather on about.

                                There are a few interesting aspects to the mechanic which could lend itself well to a Multiversal game system. For one, its familiar enough that people can easily pick up on it. The toughness save system (used in both M+M and True20) eliminates hit points and replaces it with damage states, making combat resolution faster. Its more rules light and thus more focus can be made on role playing.

                                The system itself breaks down into components (I read the term "modular" somewhere in a previous post), which is quite nice. On the True 20 forums, there are threads which break down the game in to a M+M compatible point-buy system, as well as a nice thread that backward engineers the roles so that new ones can be made.

                                There are many settings for it in various genres thus far. Blue Rose is the romantic fantasy setting that prompted the launch of the system. The core rule book has fantasy (Caliphate Nights), scifi/space opera (Lux Aeternum), anime/manga type stuff (Mecha vs Kaiju) as well as Borrowed Time which has time related powers useful for time and dimension travelling characters that you might find in the Multiverse. The Worlds of Adventure book adds more themes (conspiracy, high fantasy, low fantasy, horror - sort of) all of which demonstrate its versatility of genre.

                                In the True 20 Beastiary, creating custom creatures and beings can be done by simply adding a template. Even more interesting is that there is a combat unit template which can be applied to anything (person, creature, vehicle) making mass combat manageable and playable. Want to play out a battle between the Kamarg and Granbretan? The combat unit template will handle it, and let you resolve it in minutes rather than hours.

                                Also the conviction system of the game would be easily adapted to the Law/Chaos/Balance scheme. This works similar to the Hero points in M+M with the exception that conviction is based on a hero acting in accordance with their nature and being rewarded or penalized accordingly, without using a generic yard stick to measure it out.

                                If necessary the system could be hybridized to eliminate level, using a GURPs-esque system. I know there are a lot of people who disdain the use of levels, and wonder as to why not just use GURPs? My answer is likely biased, but it seems to be accurate where I live: In 20 years, I have managed to get people to play GURPs once; In 20 years, I have been able to get people to play M+M/True 20 many times more than once.

                                Basically, people are more interested in playing something which they are familar with, which is important if you want to sell the game. If you want to make a system which will be made by fans and for fans and circulated for free, then by all means use whatever system you like.

                                Anyways, I've written a mishmash here, so I'll leave off for now so that I can reread the posts in the thread.
                                Yuki says, "Krimson used to be known as Kommando, but he rarely uses that name anymore. Sometimes he appears as Krimson Gray as well. Do not be confused, he still loves cats and bagels."

                                Comment

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