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Stormbringer RPG opinions.

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Ian
    Originally posted by Berry Sizemore
    Less recently, you've got Darkscyde's heretofore Chaosium authorized Corum - http://www.darcsyde.org/Press/release020301.html - (Mike hasn't even seen a copy of the publication) put out by a very friendly and sociable Liam Routt.
    Berry - Mike posesses and has at least thumbed through a copy of Corum - I should know since I personally purchased it and sent it to him. I even
    have some feedback form him in an email.

    Oh, and I'll add - the chap who wrote the review of DLoM used to be a regular
    poster in the Eternal Champion RPG Yahoo group - and is neither a real fan
    of MM nor of the game. I've had many discussions with him regarding both
    the rules and the background, and his lack of knowledge was astounding.

    Ian
    Many thanks Ian. I had a feeling you'd have something more to add to this discussion.
    The cat spread its wings and flew high into the air, hovering to keep pace with them as they moved cautiously toward the city. Then, as they climbed over the rubble of what had once been a gateway and began to make their way through piles of weed-grown masonry, the cat flew to the squat building with the yellow dome upon its roof. It flew twice around the dome and then came back to settle on Jhary's shoulder. - The King of the Swords

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Berry Sizemore
      Many thanks Ian. I had a feeling you'd have something more to add to this discussion.
      No prob - by now you should all know how I feel about this issue -
      I often feel like I'm burning both ends of the candle (or more
      appropriately, I am the candle getting burnt at both ends).

      But, to sum it up for those who might be new(ish):

      I agree that Chaosium has mishandled the license/game line. There
      must be some truth to Mike's claims, as evidenced by the EC line's
      (lack of) development. I would love nothing better than to plunk down
      money and buy the license just to clean the mess up (Mongoose had
      taken an interest in the Cthulhu line, and apparently, Charlie said they
      could have it for US$1 million - which inlcuded the whole company).
      The system, albeit with a few tweaks, is perfect for the EC saga - it
      is flexible enough to handle all of the styles/settings - from Elric to
      Hawkmoon to Von Bek to Jerry Cornelius.

      I also feel that Mike's claims are colored with regret/hindsight - he
      has repeated many times his regret in signing the original deal with
      Chaosium. With that in mind, it looks like the contract may have a
      more solid footing than we think, otherwise I would imagine a quick
      court case would dissolve the contract once and for all.

      As a result, Mike's fans who are also Stormbringer RPG fans (but not
      necessarily Chaosium fans) are getting caught in the middle (and
      subsequently bashed for being Stormbringer RPG fans).

      So, until I somehow get a hold of a spare million buried in my couch
      cushions, I will continue to develop my houserules, both BRP and OGL20,
      and wait until the time is right to release it on the web as fan material,
      or official material once the dust clears.

      As an slightly on topic aside, Mongoose has just anounced a deal with
      Greg Stafford (the guy who started Chaosium and originally dealt with
      the EC/Chaosium license) to re-release RuneQuest with a BRP based
      system (not officially BRP). Greg has been away from Chaosium for
      some time, and I am not sure it was an amicable split. Also, apparently
      Mongoose has put a call out to Steve Perrin, the original RuneQuest
      designer, from which Chaosium's BRP was derived. Perhaps Mongoose
      might try an end around?

      Ian
      Diplomacy: The ability to tell someone to
      go to hell so that they will look forward to
      making the trip.

      Comment


      • #18
        What really stinks, the other side of the fans getting bashed, is when fans show up here and elsewhere, asking Mike why he hates Chaosium, basically laying on him the burden of the situation, while Krank gets a pass. I played D&D for years and have nothing against gamers as a culture. I haven't played all that much in recent years, due to my preference for online gaming, such as Magic The Gathering Online. When fanbois show up and start screeching about their gaming being affected by Mike's reluctance to expand the world into Chaosium's systems.

        There isn't a signed contract by the way. It's all verbal. Frankly, gaming isn't all that important to Mike, so he sees no reason to litigate. Chaosium is a tiny company unable to expand the line beyond what already exists or what it can get very cheaply by those "who love Michael's characters and worlds". Universal's continued possession of rights (20 months more from July 1st, 2005) seems like a bell tolling for Chaosium.

        Will Universal be interested in the content, the game mechanics or both? I speculate that taking the game system out of the picture, Chaosium have a real problem, I would speculate.
        The cat spread its wings and flew high into the air, hovering to keep pace with them as they moved cautiously toward the city. Then, as they climbed over the rubble of what had once been a gateway and began to make their way through piles of weed-grown masonry, the cat flew to the squat building with the yellow dome upon its roof. It flew twice around the dome and then came back to settle on Jhary's shoulder. - The King of the Swords

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Berry Sizemore
          What really stinks, the other side of the fans getting bashed, is when fans show up here and elsewhere, asking Mike why he hates Chaosium, basically laying on him the burden of the situation, while Krank gets a pass.
          Believe me - when they come here, I agree - it appears Charlie is getting
          a pass. But elsewhere, Charlie is not held in such high regard. I think most
          of what came about here was the reactive result of the attacks being laid
          out as if they blindly supported Chaosium. It's a fine line when you want the
          best product but not the producer. A dance with the devil situation. Similar
          to buying gasoline but being against the war in Iraq, or buying products from
          China but against China's treatment of Taiwan. Granted, it's not the same
          scale, but it is a very similar concept.

          Originally posted by Berry Sizemore
          When fanbois show up and start screeching about their gaming being affected by Mike's reluctance to expand the world into Chaosium's systems.
          And this is a sticky point both ways - Mike may not want to expand the
          world into Chaosium's systems, but at the same time, the gamers/products
          are being bashed because they have had to expand the worlds themselves
          as a result. I respect Mike's decision - it's his creation and he is entitled
          to do with it as he sees fit. There needs to be some approval process for
          expansion though - gaming requires some details to be fleshed out. Again,
          if the license issue were less volatile, and someone was running the
          license whom Mike had implicit trust in or a good repoire with, this would
          be a non-issue.

          And I agree, Universal's interest may definitely change the scope and
          outcome of things. All I can say is - Mike, if you want me to take it over,
          I will :)

          Ian
          Diplomacy: The ability to tell someone to
          go to hell so that they will look forward to
          making the trip.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Berry Sizemore
            What really stinks, the other side of the fans getting bashed, is when fans show up here and elsewhere, asking Mike why he hates Chaosium, basically laying on him the burden of the situation, while Krank gets a pass.
            I didn't mean to come across that way, although I probably did.

            I just stumbled onto the Multiverse here (as both a gamer and a Moorcock fan) and noticed not very much effusive chatter over the Chaosium games. I seemed to remember hearing somewhere that there was some bad blood, and so I was curious.

            That's all.

            I guess I just think it's too bad about the whole thing. I like the RPG, and I love Moorcock's work, and I think there;s so much more that could be done gaming-wise. Chaosium's clearly not doing it, though. And now it appears that they have generally been dicks.

            I definitely will assume in any given situation that the game publishers are the jerks and the source of the problem in any rpg-related unhappiness.

            My parents are/have been freelance illustrators in the genre for over twenty years (David and Lori Deitrick; my dad has done work for GDW, Pinnacle, Fasa, and dozens of other companies, and my mom has done work here and there, mostly for Chaosium), and have story after story of bad contracts and generally being manipulated and taken advantage of.

            I just think it's too bad.

            It's like the moral situation of action figures. They're cool as heck, and loads of fun to play with and collect... and they're made by Chinese convict (slave) labor, including political prisoners a-plenty.

            The game is fun, especially if you like Moorcock. But the stuff behind it...

            :(

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Random Goblin
              Originally posted by Berry Sizemore
              What really stinks, the other side of the fans getting bashed, is when fans show up here and elsewhere, asking Mike why he hates Chaosium, basically laying on him the burden of the situation, while Krank gets a pass.
              I didn't mean to come across that way, although I probably did.

              I just stumbled onto the Multiverse here (as both a gamer and a Moorcock fan) and noticed not very much effusive chatter over the Chaosium games. I seemed to remember hearing somewhere that there was some bad blood, and so I was curious.

              That's all.

              I guess I just think it's too bad about the whole thing. I like the RPG, and I love Moorcock's work, and I think there;s so much more that could be done gaming-wise. Chaosium's clearly not doing it, though. And now it appears that they have generally been dicks.

              I definitely will assume in any given situation that the game publishers are the jerks and the source of the problem in any rpg-related unhappiness.

              My parents are/have been freelance illustrators in the genre for over twenty years (David and Lori Deitrick; my dad has done work for GDW, Pinnacle, Fasa, and dozens of other companies, and my mom has done work here and there, mostly for Chaosium), and have story after story of bad contracts and generally being manipulated and taken advantage of.

              I just think it's too bad.

              It's like the moral situation of action figures. They're cool as heck, and loads of fun to play with and collect... and they're made by Chinese convict (slave) labor, including political prisoners a-plenty.

              The game is fun, especially if you like Moorcock. But the stuff behind it...

              :(
              You didn't come across that way at all!

              You are more than welcome to use this forum for germanating more interest. This site could really use some chatter about games and so on. I hope I didn't come across to acerbic.

              I think that's kind of what demos was implying, that there are bigger problems of the nature you describe. Considering the scope of this situation, it really is small potatoes. My motivation is to repel Chaosium shills, which you obviously aren't.

              You're obviously very intelligent and I'm greatful the opportunity to discuss this with someone who is able to remain so polite and even handed.
              The cat spread its wings and flew high into the air, hovering to keep pace with them as they moved cautiously toward the city. Then, as they climbed over the rubble of what had once been a gateway and began to make their way through piles of weed-grown masonry, the cat flew to the squat building with the yellow dome upon its roof. It flew twice around the dome and then came back to settle on Jhary's shoulder. - The King of the Swords

              Comment


              • #22
                Yeah Conrad, don't worry about it. There are a few here who are
                interested in the RPGs. Discussion is rare, but often insightful.
                And sometimes, you might be able to drag Mike into the fray if
                background is the subject at hand.

                I come here less often than I used to, but I still rear my ugly
                head every so often to see things from a more literary angle.
                But you can bet I will still post on RPG.net and the EC Yahoo
                group.

                Ian (Vagabond)
                Diplomacy: The ability to tell someone to
                go to hell so that they will look forward to
                making the trip.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Ian
                  Yeah Conrad, don't worry about it. There are a few here who are
                  interested in the RPGs. Discussion is rare, but often insightful.
                  And sometimes, you might be able to drag Mike into the fray if
                  background is the subject at hand.

                  I come here less often than I used to, but I still rear my ugly
                  head every so often to see things from a more literary angle.
                  But you can bet I will still post on RPG.net and the EC Yahoo
                  group.

                  Ian (Vagabond)
                  You're just everywhere, aren't you?

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Random Goblin

                    You're just everywhere, aren't you?
                    Nope - just the places I want to be :)

                    And next time I visit my grandmother in the Bronx, I'll let you
                    know!

                    Ian
                    Diplomacy: The ability to tell someone to
                    go to hell so that they will look forward to
                    making the trip.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      From my reply in the Movie discussions

                      Originally posted by Monshanjik
                      The world so richly expressed in the body of work concerning the Bright Empire does not -- in my understanding -- jive with the death-obsessed Gothic stuff one finds in the various iterations of the novels in RPGs. I can see a great many things, but the taint of human death-obsessed finials is a bit beyond me. As I understand it, the Melnibonéans are not particularly concerned with skulls, blood, or other things from the necropolis save as they relate to necromancy and nigromancy... although these two "arts" may not be mutually exclusive.

                      Also, it makes little sense to me that Melnibonéans would feature demons in their art and architecture, since this order of being would be generally regarded as little more than the slaves or day-labourers of the conjurers. It disappoints me more than I can say when I see human artists projecting their own obsessions with a very human ideation of evil into the very un-human art and architecture of Imrryr.
                      Further, the defects of the Chaosium game runs deeper than the artwork. From start to finish, it is a morbid fascination with destruction, perversion, and evil. Those few areas where it is remotely faithful to the body of work by Mr Moorcock is appallingly scant.

                      I still remember erupting in explicative over "Goldar" et al. as a Lords of Law - when Arkyn and Shalod are offered in the Corum series, but as far as I know no others are named. Ileh is some order of being more like an angel or αγγελος - but not a Lord of Law proper.

                      The supplement "Perils of the Young Kingdoms" is farcical and insulting to anyone who has ever read a word written by Mr Moorcock - and "Dragon Lords of Melniboné" -- albeit promising -- falls flat in its additions and ad libitum.

                      There is a general failure of the game designers to convey the antique, decayed majesty of the Melnibonéans and the respect, fear, and hatred they evoke in the humans of the Young Kingdoms. The loathsome effect they do achieve is a sickening duality in caricature of the American phobic ideas of the Church of God versus the Church of Satan. Lords of Chaos and Lords of Law are equally capable of both good and evil, so there should be not the slightest inference of these things in the game's basic theogeny. Indeed, if either gains full sway over a plane, they are equally pestilential.

                      The failure of the designers in magic is also rather appalling. The ludicrous reliance on demons for everything in the early versions of the game I had was vexing to say the least. Yes a great deal of conjurring takes place in the books, but other things that can only be described as the subjugation of matter to the will of the caster occurs with reasonable frequency. One could I suppose describe this as using in rudimentary form the same technique as a Dream Thief uses to fetch things from Dreams.

                      The other parts of the game are basic to the Chaosium system and shared with "Call of Cthulhu" and several other games no longer available. Those core game rules are reliable and efficient. All else may be casually discarded as perversion of Mr Moorcock's work or just plain slop.
                      Last edited by Monshanjik; 09-13-2006, 11:49 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        I've never found Stormbringer that bad a game, though it was a little narrow in its focus.
                        From what I can fathom from comments I've picked the majority of the problems at the games core seem to stem from a break down in communication between Mike and Chaosium (The whys and wherefores are scattered about the net and I don't presume to judge).
                        By the time Chaosium installed a descent line manager to get Stormbringer back on course (i.e Elric! and Stormbringer 5) the communication seems to have disintegrated to nothing. And the line was left to second hand insight in to Mike's world.

                        I was re-reading Elric of Melnibone, it is amazing how Mike manages to channel your imagination into a perception of a subject.
                        Take Dhoz Kam for example, Mike doesn't really give any detail on the city, he actually paints the scenes with a broad brush. You gives detail on the governors house where Elric's Cousin is holed up, and notes the size of his fleet.
                        From my own perspective the city I percieved was a rat infested pirate hole very much in line with Pirates otC's Toturga.
                        The only problem with such broad strokes is your relying on everyone to have the save worldview as yourself, or one that is at least close to your own.
                        Is there any way to guarantee my perception of Dhoz Kham is how Mike envisoned it? of course not.
                        (And of course you can't go it minute detail in a novel without killing the stories pace, drive, and building intensity.)

                        It just seems such a missed opportunity, why Chaosium didn't try to get Mike on board to broaden his descriptions of the localities and cultures - rather than relying on a narrow perspective of a hand full of 'fans' to expand on his ideas without guidance.

                        As I previously mentioned the core game books where fine, the system knocks spots off D&D/d20, it allows broad character development rather than restricting it to artificial stereotypes.

                        The other source books suffer from lack of information - mostly becuse of the rift between Mike and Chaosium, its common practise in any source book from any RPG manufacturer based on anothers work - if you can't get information from the author you make it up...
                        You try to get it close to his style... but Mike's worldview is unique to him and the authors employed by Chaosium can't really expect to second guess his vision of the Youngkingdom with any great accuracy.

                        Sorry if this is a bit disorganised, typing as I think, blured by the remnants of last nights ale. :)

                        Paul

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Just after Stormbringer 5th came out, I decided to write an adventure for the system. The first thing I did, even before I made my initial contact with Chaosium, was to go into the Q&A and ask Mike his opinion. Being the very class act he is, he gave me encouragement despite the ongoing problems with Chaosium. I don't know this ever crossed Mike's mind (since he has more important irons in more important fires) but had Mike simply told me "no, I don't think you should contribute anything to the line", I would have abandoned the project then and there.

                          Instead, Mike's encouragement and his very generous attitude towards patiently answering all of my fan-inspired questions gave me tons of confidence both as a game designer, and as an amateur writer.

                          Of course, Chaosium decided not to further develop my adventure idea for their own reasons, so my manuscript remains tucked away, and gathering dust in a box somewhere.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            I actually played (ran actaully) the Stormbringer RPG before I read any of MMs books.
                            I used the first edition boxed set of Stormbringer.

                            However, after a few sessions of running stormbringer, I started buy MMs books.
                            I'm guessing I spend a small fortune of his books, what with moving about the world and rebuying books over many years.

                            So, for me the RPG actually introduced me to MMs work.

                            However, I didn't really like the later editions of stormbringer, I preferred the simplicity of the original edition.

                            As it stands, I haven't played or run a Stormbringer (or corum or Hakwmoon) rpg for many years, although not as a protest, more as I don't really like the RPG material or the system.

                            If there was to be a new RPG based on MMS works (and preferably with his involvement), I may well be interested, if I liked the system, which would have to be smooth running and not rules bound (definitely not D20).


                            anyway, just an example here where the RPG got MM a customer for his books..

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              there were propositions to use a genric system as base of the RPG ...... ( Gurps or Fudge or sometuhing like that )

                              I said as base ! That means rethinking the rules ...

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                I am a little involved with the Elric of Melnibone book that Mongoose
                                is working on. Just providing thoughts to the author. He is very
                                receptive, and a lot of our ideas actually click together. I think people
                                will be pleased.

                                Ian
                                Diplomacy: The ability to tell someone to
                                go to hell so that they will look forward to
                                making the trip.

                                Comment

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