Stormbringer RPG opinions.

[Random Goblin]

Hi everyone, this is my first post.

I have heard that Michael Moorcock has been unsatisfied with Chaosium's Elric.Stormbringer RPG treatement as of late, and I'm curious why.

What do people here think about the game/s? Love them? Hate them? Play them? And why/why not?

I myself like them just fine, except for the current disastrous lack of product support.

[Whiskers]

Hi RG,

Here's what I and many others think of Chaosium: [broken link]

[Random Goblin]

Okay, but what about the game itself?

Has everybody abandoned it on principle, and made up a bunch of reasons why the game sucks to further justify themselves, when really it's the company that sucks?

Just curious still.

[Whiskers]

Those who have played seem to have enjoyed the mechanics. At least those who communicated with me. I mean, there is that Yahoo group where tons of people are still talking about the mechanics of the game and so forth.

But why would anyone play an aging, ill supported, writer leeching and out-of-contract game that directly damages the original writer's ideas and intellectual property? Do you ignore those ramifications and continue to support Chaosium despite the fact that they are ripping Mike off?

[Random Goblin]

Kind of a loaded question, eh? What am I supposed to say, "why yes, I think that d!cking Mr. Moorcock ober is a fantastic idea!

Mostly I just want to play an RPG set in the Young Kingdoms, in the world created by my favorite author. And fortunately, there's already an RPG out there that I think is really good.

Do I like what I hear about Chaosium? Nope. Still gonna play the games, though. They're fun.

If someone else put out an Elric RPG that was better, I'd play that instead.

[Whiskers]

Do I like what I hear about Chaosium? Nope. Still gonna play the games, though. They're fun.

This is the problem. Despite words from the author himself, you choose to consume products that negatively effect him. This is the sad state of affairs. The rip off continues while players knowingly support this thievery.

I hope you aren't taking this personally, because you seem like a decent person. Why would you continue to play the game despite it ripping Mike off. Just fun? That's it? Your fun is more important than the author getting ripped off? Is there any question I'm allowed to ask that you won't describe as "loaded"?

Why do you play when you know that Michael Moorcock is getting ripped off?

[Random Goblin]

Playing the game isn't the same thing as supporting the company. Buying their products is supporting the company. The last Chaosium product I bought was in... 1997.

If I love the Elric books, what's wrong with me expressing that by playing the RPG? Especially if I don't support Chaosium with my pocketbook?

[Whiskers]

Nothing at all. There was some talk in this forum about adapting other gaming systems for use in The Young Kingdoms. Have you considered adapting Mike's stuff for personal use in the D20 system?

[David Mosley]

Why would you continue to play the game despite it ripping Mike off. Just fun? That's it? Your fun is more important than the author getting ripped off?...Why do you play when you know that Michael Moorcock is getting ripped off?

I find this comment quite interesting even though I don't play any RPGs anymore - at least not the paper 'n' pencil kind. Somewhere amidst all the many boxes, rule books and supplements I've acquired over the years I have a copy of the Stormbringer ruleback from the days of the Chaosium/Games Workshop joint venture (so we're talking late-80s here). I didn't pay for this rulebook because I won it in a GW-run competition (actually they sent me two copies, but I sold the other soon afterwards to a school mate). On the back of the book is a 'quote' from Mike:

"Stormbringer [the game presumably] reveals more about my own fantasy books and characters than I could have guessed! It does not merely derive from the books - it complements them perfectly. The game is delightful."

I don't know the provenance of that quote but it's clearly being used as an endorsement of the product by the author of the source material.

Now, if I were to dig that rulebook out and get a bunch of friends together and play a couple of games of Stormbringer RPG would we be condoning Chaosium's current behaviour to Mike? I'm not sure that we would. The version of the game we'd be playing (in this hypothesis) is nearly 20-years old and may (or may not) bear any resemblance to the current version of the game (I wouldn't know because I haven't seen the game lately). The game 'appears' to have been endorsed by Mike at the time my copy of the rulebook was printed - even if, as seems to be the case, Mike has issues with it nowadays. (Is it the current game that's part of the problem (ie it's been taken in directions Mike doesn't like?) or is it just Chaosium's business practices that are at the heart of the dispute?)

I suppose, what I'm getting at here is, it's like if I go down to the local charity shop and buy a tatty old fur coat, am I indirectly supporting the current fur trade? The coat's already been made many years beforehand, it was purchased then and later donated to the charity shop. The money I pay for it doesn't go to the fur trade it goes to the charity. Whether I buy it or not today doesn't distract from the fact that it exists or that animals were killed in order to make it, but in buying it some good (possibly) comes from whole process. Then again, I know there are people who would say you shouldn't buy it because of what it represents.

Knowing what little I do about the current situation, I would be extremely uncomfortable buying (or having bought for me) any current Chaosium Moorcock-related product when I'm aware the situtation between Mike and Chaosium exists, so I wouldn't do it. If Mike were to say (and maybe he has and I just haven't seen this anywhere) 'please don't play any versions of the Stormbringer RPG game' then I wouldn't, out of respect for his feelings, but in the abscence of such a request I'd have problems equating my playing of a (nearly) 20-year old game with support of the present company who made that game at the time.

I should stress that this is all entirely hypothetical since I'm absolutely in no position to ever play a game of Stormbringer RPG again in the near or even long term. I'm trying to tread carefully because I sense that this can be quite an emotive issue - no one likes to see the creator of a work being dissed by people exploiting his creation. I'm not even saying that the view I express above is my final, unalterable opinion on the matter. I'm completely open to persuasion. Like I say, I find Berry's comments interesting because they imply that there's a (hidden) morality behind the actions of players that the players themselves may not even be aware of.

Cheers,
David

[Random Goblin]

Knowing what little I do about the current situation, I would be extremely uncomfortable buying (or having bought for me) any current Chaosium Moorcock-related product when I'm aware the situtation between Mike and Chaosium exists, so I wouldn't do it.

Are there even any "current" Chaosium Moorcock-related products? I was of the understanding that they haven't even put anything out since Stormbringer 5th, which was several years ago already.

[Random Goblin]

Nothing at all. There was some talk in this forum about adapting other gaming systems for use in The Young Kingdoms. Have you considered adapting Mike's stuff for personal use in the D20 system?

Well, I'm not exactly the d20 system's biggest fan. DLOM didn't help, either.

And I guess that's the hardest part of the whole thing- I really think BRP is a dang good fit. And to come up with something else, that's some serious work, and it seems silly when Elric! and three supplements for it are sitting right there on my RPG shelf.

Although I've given some thought to playing a game based on The Warhound and the World's Pain using the new Warhammer FRP as a rules base, but it seems like GW isn't very popular around here, either. Nor should it probably be.

Of course, WFRP was developed by Green Ronin and only put out by GW, who barely acknowledge its existence what with their general anti-RPG sentiment.

All that said, I'll reaffirm that is there was another EC rpg out there not by Chaosium, I'd surely play it instead. But there isn't. And I'm just too much of a gamer to go without.

[Whiskers]

Why would you continue to play the game despite it ripping Mike off. Just fun? That's it? Your fun is more important than the author getting ripped off?...Why do you play when you know that Michael Moorcock is getting ripped off?

I find this comment quite interesting even though I don't play any RPGs anymore - at least not the paper 'n' pencil kind.

I agree with what you're saying here. I don't have time to dig them up, but within the last year, we've had at least two cottage businesses pop up, DriveThruRPG I think that sells PDF versions of ELRIC! modules, and a small magazine that will be taking advertising from Chaosium, nice guys who have promised not to spam us here. You're going to find lots of secondhand stuff around, and who is going to get bent about that? Not me. But the most recent bit that has come out of Chaosium, a piece that Mike never agreed to, DRAGON LORDS OF MELNIBONE - http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/9/9520.phtml Please not that this review of the product literally oozes intelligence. :roll: Less recently, you've got Darkscyde's heretofore Chaosium authorized Corum - http://www.darcsyde.org/Press/release020301.html - (Mike hasn't even seen a copy of the publication) put out by a very friendly and sociable Liam Routt.

While this ripping off continues, I'll be waving my lofty morals at people who choose to purchase product from these places. Players that dismiss what Chaosium are doing will be reminded at this site.

[Random Goblin]

DLOM really was bad. I bought a used copy, but then I sold it back to the used bookstore.

It was just Stormbringer and D&D haphazardly thrown together. Broke my heart.

[David Mosley]

http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/9/9520.phtml Please not that this review of the product literally oozes intelligence. :roll: Less recently, you've got Darkscyde's heretofore Chaosium authorized Corum - http://www.darcsyde.org/Press/release020301.html

Oh Berry, those links were priceless! :lol: Two bits stood out for me in particular though. From the first:

While he's not a household name, Michael Moorcock is a somewhat popular science fiction and fantasy writer. He's a bit of a commie (though ironically he apparently lives in Texas for tax purposes...) but is a fairly nice guy (he has a website where fans can ask him questions about anything and he's very good about answering) and I've read most of his novels. He started off as something of a hack writing pastiches of Edgar Rice Burroughs and the like when he was really young (16 or so), but he developed into an excellent writer and one of the more experimental writers around. Along the way, he had one hit series, that of Elric! He tried to kill him off in the 60s(and did, actually), but presumably for money purposes, he kept writing them over the years, to this day

I mean, talk about damning with faint praise! 'a somewhat popular writer', 'a commie but a nice guy', 'a hack but an excellent writer', and so it goes. :D

And from the second:

One of the special features of the book is what Liam calls “a speculative background� for the Nhadragh, a race that Moorcock chose to say little about in the Corum books. “In this case we’ve gone somewhat further than the books do,� Liam explains, “There are some interesting ideas about the Nhadragh scattered through our book that we think will make for great angst-ridden fantasy and role-playing. Indeed, while we document the world of the novels lovingly, I think this book provides gamers with a whole lot more.�

In other words, they've made it all up. :roll:

Classics, both of them. :P

[Ian]

Less recently, you've got Darkscyde's heretofore Chaosium authorized Corum - http://www.darcsyde.org/Press/release020301.html - (Mike hasn't even seen a copy of the publication) put out by a very friendly and sociable Liam Routt.

Berry - Mike posesses and has at least thumbed through a copy of Corum - I should know since I personally purchased it and sent it to him. I even
have some feedback form him in an email.

Oh, and I'll add - the chap who wrote the review of DLoM used to be a regular
poster in the Eternal Champion RPG Yahoo group - and is neither a real fan
of MM nor of the game. I've had many discussions with him regarding both
the rules and the background, and his lack of knowledge was astounding.

Ian