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  • #61
    Tolkien is ace - down with the paternalistic Sixties

    I like Moorcock's Golden Barge and the first Elric, but comparing his work to Tolkien is like comparing a hedge to a forest. So mr Moorcock feels Tolkien's generation repressed his own? What about HIS paternalistic Sixties baby boomer repression of my generation (closure of Grammar Schools, unattainable houses, Graduate low pay, aspirant working class exclusion, Asylum swamping, hippy left wing stranglehold of the media?).

    The notion that Tolkien is fascist is simplistic at best. In any case, even liberals like Oliver James accept that IQ in adulthood is 50% inherited, along with personal traits like conservatism. The true figure is probably closer to 80%.

    The depth of Tolkien's work, its elaborate and thought provoking alternative history (echoed in revisionists like Hancock) is unmatched by Moorcock or anyone else. Its continuing popularity reveals its greatness as a literary work, in that (like say, Shakespeare) each age finds new revelations about the human condition. Obviously, the threat posed by an indigestible Islam looms large in contemporary interpretations. And rightly so.

    Mr Moorcock's prevailing theme of order v chaos has in any case been more ably handled in Zelazny's brilliant Amber series. His own greatest work (IMHO Byzantium Endures) is not really fantasy as such, more a unique magic realism heavily influential on Neil Gaiman (to name but one). IOW his own mastery is not really in Tolkien's domain.

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    • #62
      Tolkien

      Not nice calling Mr Tolkien a hedge.

      Comment


      • #63
        Re: Tolkien is ace - down with the paternalistic Sixties

        Originally posted by Muzalon
        The depth of Tolkien's work, its elaborate and thought provoking alternative history (echoed in revisionists like Hancock) is unmatched by Moorcock or anyone else. Its continuing popularity reveals its greatness as a literary work, in that (like say, Shakespeare) each age finds new revelations about the human condition. Obviously, the threat posed by an indigestible Islam looms large in contemporary interpretations. And rightly so.

        Mr Moorcock's prevailing theme of order v chaos has in any case been more ably handled in Zelazny's brilliant Amber series. His own greatest work (IMHO Byzantium Endures) is not really fantasy as such, more a unique magic realism heavily influential on Neil Gaiman (to name but one). IOW his own mastery is not really in Tolkien's domain.

        :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
        The cat spread its wings and flew high into the air, hovering to keep pace with them as they moved cautiously toward the city. Then, as they climbed over the rubble of what had once been a gateway and began to make their way through piles of weed-grown masonry, the cat flew to the squat building with the yellow dome upon its roof. It flew twice around the dome and then came back to settle on Jhary's shoulder. - The King of the Swords

        Comment


        • #64
          Re: Tolkien is ace - down with the paternalistic Sixties

          Originally posted by Muzalon
          In any case, even liberals like Oliver James accept that IQ in adulthood is 50% inherited, along with personal traits like conservatism. The true figure is probably closer to 80%.
          Sweet Zombie Jesus, I hope not! The very idea of inheriting anything from my parents terrifies the living hedge out of me... except money, of course.

          I was under the impression the "paternalistic Sixties" also brought about decent rock music, the decriminilization of homosexuality, Women's Liberation, Black Power and exciting new hair-related options for young men everywhere... although my grasp of history is somewhat shaky, so I'll take your word for how stinky the decade was, Mr Muzalon.

          However, I don't see how a blatantly xenophobic series of books can seriously help anyone to navigate the current political turmoil. Sorry. Just my opinion.

          D...
          "That which does not kill us, makes us stranger." - Trevor Goodchild

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          • #65
            Jesus people, I go away for a few months, and when I come back you are still talking about Tolkien.

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            • #67
              Tolkein. ::YAAAWN!::

              :o
              \"Bush\'s army of barmy bigots is the worst thing that\'s happened to the US in some years...\"
              Michael Moorcock - 3am Magazine Interview

              Comment


              • #68
                Originally posted by Michael Moorcock
                Oh, bloody hell. I'm with you, Paul.
                So yeah Mike, lets ignore them and talk about something else. The Weiss brothers huh? When you see those guys, tell them I'm one of the few people who liked "Off Centre", it may cheer them up. :lol:

                Comment


                • #69
                  The depth of Tolkien's work, its elaborate and thought provoking alternative history (echoed in revisionists like Hancock) is unmatched by Moorcock or anyone else
                  Alot of us here~ like Tolkien, but he's our hedge.
                  You might want to read the article below,
                  before comparing him to Shakespeare.
                  Another rare quaility in MM is he'll always
                  give credit where it is due!

                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                  ''Another huge influence for LOTR was Beowulf.
                  The earliest surviving epic poem written in English,
                  Beowulf was most likely composed in the seventh
                  or eighth century by an Anglian bard.''

                  http://www.jitterbug.com/origins/lotr.html
                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




                  http://www.zakas.org/drjest/drjest.html

                  Comment


                  • #70
                    You know, the whole "hedge vs. forest" thing has been bugging me. I mean, if we don't know how large the hedge is in comparison to the forest, it's impossible to really compare the two. Also, the quality is important too... in relation to your indidivudal requirements. A hedge can be aesthetically pleasing and therefore enriching to the soul, especially if you're carefully tending it and deriving pleasure that way... whereas a forest can be petrified, dead or decaying. Hedges can be grown in the form of a maze and therefore be just as large and complex as any forest you care to - OOOH look, the sun's out!!!

                    [Dee dashes off to the beach and forgets all about hedges]
                    "That which does not kill us, makes us stranger." - Trevor Goodchild

                    Comment


                    • #71
                      Well, I don't know about 'alternative history'. Nor about 'world building'. I think that takes obsession and rejection of reality, frankly, to spend so much time on such pursuits. My 'constructs' are there for other purposes and to see them primarily as 'alternative history' is at best naive. I've mentioned this before. My work is largely 'intervention' and what it's saying, should anyone care, is pretty much directly and intentionally at odds with the conservative and conventional expressions of the Oxford Inklings. I'm not offering those comforts. That said, I have no argument with most of the work itself, only with those who believe Tolkien is on the same level as, say, the great European moral novelists. But I don't see much point in this discussion, since people who see a bit of academic obsession as 'deep' aren't arguing from the same basis as mine which means there's no point in continuing the discussion. We're better off if we simply beg to differ.

                      Pre-order or Buy my latest titles in Europe:
                      The Whispering Swarm: Book One of the Sanctuary of the White Friars - The Laughter of Carthage - Byzantium Endures - London Peculiar and Other Nonfiction
                      Doctor Who: The Coming of the Terraphiles - Kizuna: Fiction for Japan - Modem Times 2.0 - The Sunday Books - The Sundered Worlds


                      Pre-order or Buy my latest titles in the USA:
                      The Laughter of Carthage - Byzantium Endures - London Peculiar and Other Nonfiction - The Sunday Books - Doctor Who: The Coming of the Terraphiles
                      Kizuna: Fiction for Japan - The Sundered Worlds - The Winds of Limbo - Modem Times 2.0 - Elric: Swords and Roses

                      Comment


                      • #72
                        from my point of understanding it would be better to keep the "alternative history" label out if discussion, since it fits in neither case. such stories, as i understand them, have a close and obvious link to our world and its specific historical events without using a philosophical concept, in a way that you have to compare the "real" history with the "real invented" history since there is only one possible way how things actually happened - in a univierse, that is. but you canآ´t step out of your perspective, anyway. such stories donآ´t seem to have a strong metaphysical concept behind them. so it does not work on a pure historical level, but very well on a philosophical level, like in Mr. Moorcocks apory of chaos/order applied to alternative multiversal worlds, with a certain but not overloaded worldbuilding element. Tolkien (who is great) is completely out of the discussion here because there is no direct link to our worldآ´s history at all (of course there are enough allegorical allusions, but maybe its not wrong to follow the intention of not applying it to our worlds history, but of course very well to philosophy) - his work being a "second creation" or something, not being pure escapism of course but using a christian and conservative or however to label it metaphysical concept, applied in a pure construction - middle earth. of course it is the question if such a concept is conventional and comfortable itself. because the reader has much to say about that as well. but of course what came out of the successful Tolkien model - using the worldbuilding element withouth the metaphysical concept behind it - prooved to be comfortable and mediocre enough to sell dozens of neverending series... anway, what the fascination of a multitude of alternating reality makes is rather connected to the apory of unity/multiplicity and the contrast of principles that stay the same in all different worlds rather than the comparison of how one even turns out it that and how the other in that world in a worlbuilding focused way - that would be alternative history, which would turn out to be exciting on the surface but very convetional at closer examination, indeed.

                        hmm, hope that all makes sense. :D to sum up, in my opinion neither conventional fantasy nor more sophisticated constructs (and there are a lot thank god) fit in the "alternative history" model. "intervention" of a story with the use of a metaphysical concept is really the best term to describe.

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                        • #73
                          that was disorientanting a post as is see now...

                          anyways, neither a hedge nor a forest makes a sophisticated story. it is the root that counts!

                          Comment


                          • #74
                            aah logged in is better.

                            back to topic: letآ´s hope that the Elric blockbuster will be a "different" film, so more of a Brazil than a Final Fantasy or...uhm... LotR.

                            letآ´s hope the viewer wonآ´t have to compare hedges with roots, you know.

                            Comment


                            • #75
                              Audiorealms talking book ELRIC oF MELNIBONE

                              As the British Summer seems to have arrived with the Venus transit and I assume the screenplay is as I type being written how if you don't have a credit card can I get a copy of the above mentioned talking book?

                              Any help gratefully appreciated. :?
                              \'You know my destiny?\' said Elric eagerly. \'Tell me what it is, Niun Who Knew All.\'
                              Niun opened his mouth as if to speak but then firmly shut it again. \'No,\' he said. \'I have forgotten.\'

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