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  • #46
    Originally posted by Michael Moorcock
    Didn't like what I saw of Cronenberg's Crash. Linda got it out from Blockbuster, but I'd heard it was a bowlderised version, so decided not to watch it. Crash has always made me uncomfortable, anyway, but Spader seemed a very good choice for that role, if you were going to
    'Americanise' it.
    I suspect you're write about Schindler's List. A kind of ikon to show people that you are sensitive to Jewish suffering, maybe ? Such ikons
    have been manufactured for some time. I suspect that some of the
    anti-slavery stuff of the 1800s was meant to show the person's sensitivity. The trouble with sentimentalising issues of that enormity, I suppose. It reminds me of how people used to claim (in Europe at any rate) that they were socialists, basically as a badge of their 'humanity'.
    Then for a while people were 'feminists' for much the same reasons.
    And there was also the whole hippy thing, of course. I could be misunderstanding the Schindler stuff, but I have a very bad feeling about the whole thing, anyway. Robust moral outrage doesn't usually come in plexiglass boxes.
    Your right on the whole icons issue. I was never fond of Schindler's List in that way. I remember the whole school (when i was 17) was obligated to watch the movie. Suddenly other kids started reading jewish accounts of the holocaust without really understanding the machinations that lead up to the event. And not getting into understand other genocides or massmurders like Gulag or the Khmer Rouge
    And not bothering about Rwanda at all.

    I heard a researcher in psychology on the radio once, speaking about his research into the various genocides across the world, mainly in mordern times and WW2. I think he was english, but not really sure.

    He didn't think it wise to put up monuments, because it put it all behind us at a distance. In that we think we can live our lives without it affecting us again (at least thats the impression i got, but i may have confused some phrases as there was static at times from the radio). And he also talked about the phrase "holocaust", and about political leaders not wanting to use the term 'genocide' about said event(s).

    And that it could have easily been 6 million gypsies if not jews.
    He also talked about the triggers and circumstances which produces this kind of mass genocide. I can't remember his name though.

    I also read something from the dailygrail.com about a women researcher who was on a similar note. I forgot her name too..

    I'm hopeless i guees :/

    Comment


    • #47
      Theocrat, two points:

      One, and not to diminish the Jewish suffering one bit, but there WERE many peoples confined and killed besides Jews. The Poles were brutalized, as were the gypsys (that is to say, the occupants of the outlying villages in what is now Austria, Hungary, Slovakia and the Czech Republic). I'm sure there were others, too. True enough, the main targets were Jewish, but the camps provided an equal opportunity service. I can't say it does or does not exist today, but I am told there was some undercurrent of bitterness from the families of non-Jews killed in the camps against the Jews for the "notoriety" they got at what appeared to be the expense of the other groups targeted.

      Two, the holocaust was always a story in a book to me, and even though I had distant relatives (from Poland) who were brought to the camps, it was never more than a historical anecdote. Until I went to Munich and visited Dachau. Not being Jewish, I had gone out of curiosity only, but left visibly shaken. My wife had to go out to the car, she couldn't take it (and she served 8 years in the military). Because that was not our only stop, we had our "tourist gear" - maps, cameras, whatnot - and I didn't even get out of the introduction room before I felt very foolish. This was not a tourist site. When I got to the area where much of the killing took place, I atually took the film and batteries out of the camera becuase I didn't want anyone to think I actually wanted a photograph of that. It was 6 years ago, but I can remember almost every moment like it was yesterday. Sorry if this seems dramatic, and I know I come off sometimes as cold and calculating here (with some of my political views) but this was something else entirely.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Bill
        Theocrat, two points:

        One, and not to diminish the Jewish suffering one bit, but there WERE many peoples confined and killed besides Jews. The Poles were brutalized, as were the gypsys (that is to say, the occupants of the outlying villages in what is now Austria, Hungary, Slovakia and the Czech Republic). I'm sure there were others, too. True enough, the main targets were Jewish, but the camps provided an equal opportunity service. I can't say it does or does not exist today, but I am told there was some undercurrent of bitterness from the families of non-Jews killed in the camps against the Jews for the "notoriety" they got at what appeared to be the expense of the other groups targeted.

        Two, the holocaust was always a story in a book to me, and even though I had distant relatives (from Poland) who were brought to the camps, it was never more than a historical anecdote. Until I went to Munich and visited Dachau. Not being Jewish, I had gone out of curiosity only, but left visibly shaken. My wife had to go out to the car, she couldn't take it (and she served 8 years in the military). Because that was not our only stop, we had our "tourist gear" - maps, cameras, whatnot - and I didn't even get out of the introduction room before I felt very foolish. This was not a tourist site. When I got to the area where much of the killing took place, I atually took the film and batteries out of the camera becuase I didn't want anyone to think I actually wanted a photograph of that. It was 6 years ago, but I can remember almost every moment like it was yesterday. Sorry if this seems dramatic, and I know I come off sometimes as cold and calculating here (with some of my political views) but this was something else entirely.
        Yes... I would feel the same way i think. I never think of it though as a story in a book.. I feel that this thing is very real amongst us all.
        It's just that it should be stopped before fear and hate infects a whole nation and becomes a living hell on earth.

        And that the 'us' v 'them' masshypnosis should not have to happen again.

        Comment


        • #49
          Theo,
          That is exaxtly the point but unfortunately we Are there again. Only this time we are engaged in a war which is not as clearly defined as the ones in the past and the American people are coflicted and asleep at the wheel. I would be very suprised if this whole hateful mess does not end in a world war. I am very worried about this, what can we do?
          By the way, every time I see your avatar I chuckle.
          "But I'm tryin', Ringo, I'm trying real hard to be the shepard."

          Comment


          • #50
            I don't recognize Theocrat's avatar.
            What is it?
            It's not Theleb K'aarna is it?
            Jagreen Lern?
            :?:
            \"Bush\'s army of barmy bigots is the worst thing that\'s happened to the US in some years...\"
            Michael Moorcock - 3am Magazine Interview

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Bill
              I know I come off sometimes as cold and calculating here (with some of my political views) but this was something else entirely.
              Tragedy knows know political boundaries.

              I had a hard-core conservative friend who changed his mind about homelessness the first time he actually met a homeless person. I'm certainly not equating homelessness with genocide, but I think everyone gets my point.

              Coming face-to-face with tragedy and reading about it are two remarkably different experiences.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Theocrat
                Originally posted by Michael Moorcock
                Actually I'm determined to get some sort of humour (at least ironic humour) into the first movie. Interaction with Rakhir will help there, for instance, and Moonglum later. Talking this over with Chris Weitz, he pointed out that there weren't a lot of belly-laughs in The Matrix.
                Well i think at least Elric needs 'a little' ironic CHARM at least....
                Depp's character in POTC had lots o that. But Elric needs only a small fraction of it, otherwise i think there will be too much brooding for a movie audience..

                Come to think of it.. Matrix didn't have any charm that i can think of?
                I agree with you (both of you). Elric needs ironic humour, since destiny seems to be too ironic on him... Guess it would be kind of hard, and it will take a very good actor who wouldn't make this into a comedy or pathetic situations like in "A knight's tale". Elric is a dark and rather bitter character, so I think he needs that kind of humour too.
                Sweet moons!

                Comment


                • #53
                  What about David Thewliss AND Alan Rickman as Theleb K'aarna?
                  HE did a good (he says ironically) Rasputin, but his Mesmer was bad.

                  :roll:

                  The thesp that eventually gets picked to play the part will probably be a complete unknown to the large swathe of the viewing public, alright. Then again your suggestion about Rhys Meyers because he did a subdued Steerpike would be great!

                  But Actors are a fickle bunch, some who you think would be perfect for the part, refuse and others who are second or third to get offered the role don't give it that mysterious element in the movie making formulae, that says, 'Now, that's a Blockbuster!"

                  \'You know my destiny?\' said Elric eagerly. \'Tell me what it is, Niun Who Knew All.\'
                  Niun opened his mouth as if to speak but then firmly shut it again. \'No,\' he said. \'I have forgotten.\'

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by bluekachina
                    Theo,
                    By the way, every time I see your avatar I chuckle.
                    And Jerico!

                    Hehe... I sampled and scanned it from "The Sorcerers Of Pan Tang" sourcebook for the Stormbringer RPG.. But i have only the Elric RPG.
                    I think it's supposed to represent Jagreen Lern.

                    BTW. Whats so funny about it?... Im curious! :)

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by bluekachina
                      Theo,
                      I would be very suprised if this whole hateful mess does not end in a world war. I am very worried about this, what can we do?
                      I don't believe there's much we can do at the moment. The whole situation seems to be escalating beyond control. I've talked to some of my friends and we talked about that there really seems to be a world war coming 'round the bend. Maybe it's already happening as we speak.
                      The only thing we can do is protest. But i think the ball is in Americas and Israels court, not that many other nations are also responsible as well.
                      I don't know if Kerry can resolve the situation as he did with Vietnam.
                      That is.. if he gets elected? I haven't really been paying much attention to it. And i don't see much of a difference between Republicans and Democrats in american politics. But i do hope that america grows out of their current plight, of invasive actions and unsound political tactics, politically and morally.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        [quote="Theocrat"]
                        Originally posted by bluekachina
                        Theo,
                        By the way, every time I see your avatar I chuckle.

                        BTW. Whats so funny about it?... Im curious! :)[/quote

                        Heh. It is so cool. I like the way he has his fists in the air and how the magic lines/symbols make it look as though his hands are trembling in fury.
                        At first, I visualized you as some madman who has a lot to say and now that I know you a little better, well :roll: just kidding, madman.
                        Also I just like the sound of the word THEOCRAT and how it just kind of spits itsef out. Every time I see your avatar I say your name in a baritone Shakespearian voice with an exclamation point!
                        So it is a good kind of funny.
                        "But I'm tryin', Ringo, I'm trying real hard to be the shepard."

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by bluekachina
                          Heh. It is so cool. I like the way he has his fists in the air and how the magic lines/symbols make it look as though his hands are trembling in fury.
                          At first, I visualized you as some madman who has a lot to say and now that I know you a little better, well :roll: just kidding, madman.
                          Also I just like the sound of the word THEOCRAT and how it just kind of spits itsef out. Every time I see your avatar I say your name in a baritone Shakespearian voice with an exclamation point!
                          So it is a good kind of funny.
                          Didn't know that my presence would provoke a theatrical response!
                          I'm honoured by the remark though :). Yes i do believe that the 'word'
                          Theocrat, has a certain ring to it, which is why i fell for it.. and use it as my handle everywhere. And i think the character is just so raving beautifully mad, that i think he's a cool interesting character.
                          I don't think i'm really off the notch like he is though.
                          I'm really a nice guy i guess? Confused at times..

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            If I thought you were a madman i sure would not call you one, i would just stay away from you. Those who are never confused and are firmly sure of every thought they have are the subjects of "the laughter of the gods"
                            "But I'm tryin', Ringo, I'm trying real hard to be the shepard."

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              "But i do hope that america grows out of their current plight, of invasive actions and unsound political tactics, politically and morally."

                              Not your fault, of course, but that statement right there tells me it will never happen. (And don't misunderstand me: that is NOT a good thing).

                              Why? Becuase it is much more than a "current plight". The current situation is not one developed in the last 1, 2, 3, or even 4 years. This is decades in the making. Every one here is whacking on Bush like he's a pinata, and while I think he deserves much of it, it shows how shallow (generally, I am not calling anyone here shallow) the knowledge is of the course of events in U.S. history.

                              The issues of today are borne of seeds planted in the late 40's, 50's, and early 60's. It astounds me that no one here has ever mentioned the Dulles brothers, or Robert McNamara or even GHW Bush in these conversations. THIS is where the current mindset of American foreign policy was established, not with GW Bush. The only difference, or rather, the only thing that GW brings to the table that we have not often seen before, is a sort of fundamentalism that colors the discourse. This is seen in much of the vocabulary of the Bush administration (and lest anyone call me an apologost again, this fundamentalism is absolutely unacceptable to me). It should go without saying that this fundamentalism doesn't mesh well with the kind of fundamentalism that is seen in current hotspots like Israel and Iraq. But almost everything else is an offshoot, derivative, or consequence of the transition from the OSS to the CIA and the incorporation of the industrial complex into that framework and how that framework was applied to world affairs (including Vietnam, Cuba, the Middle East) as led by the Harriman's, the Dulles' (both of them) and others in the middle part of this century.

                              I would go out on a limb and say the Dulles brothers (and their uncle and grandfather) have done more to influence (negatively, one might argue) world affairs than the entire Bush/Walker clan (which comprises at least four generations).

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Bill
                                "But i do hope that america grows out of their current plight, of invasive actions and unsound political tactics, politically and morally."

                                Not your fault, of course, but that statement right there tells me it will never happen. (And don't misunderstand me: that is NOT a good thing).

                                Why? Becuase it is much more than a "current plight".
                                Opps! I meant only 'plight'! :آ¤. I shouldn't type stuff like this when i'm tired.. working early morning shifts. :( ZzzZZzzzZZZzz *What?* Oh yess..

                                Yes you are really right about this.. At least from what i've heard listening to certain 'Spoken Word' albums by Jello Biafra. Though i don't 'always' take his word for it.. He is on the other hand politically engaged.

                                And you are right about the knowledge being superficial
                                about american history and politics..

                                Comment

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