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  • A_Non_Ymous
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael Moorcock
    The chief influence, as far as story and characters go, wasn't Jacobean but Gothic (Melmoth and so on).
    The similarities to the central character of Maturin's famous novel are patent.

    The Gothic period was an interesting one. Matthew G. Lewis's The Monk,
    Maturin's Melmoth the Wanderer, and the closet dramas of people like
    Beddoes all seemed to be imbibing at the same well, as it were. We needn't
    go into whether all of the resultant works are "good" -- although I think
    Maturin's book has a number of strengths, and I personally like it.

    There was something in the times that predisposed these people to look
    backwards to Jacobean drama. Curiously, the later Victorian critics, with
    the exception of people like Swinburne, were down on Jacobean drama
    in a big way, thinking the tragedy overdone and Jacobean tragi-comedy
    morally squalid. (Beaumont and Fletcher squalid? Chaqu'un أ  son goأ»t.)

    But I used to read Shakespeare and Middleton and the others to soup myself up as far as producing the right kind of heightened language I wanted.
    I can see this. Middleton was one of my suspicions based on the verbal
    texture. I like Middleton a lot; Women Beware Women and The Changeling
    and A Game at Chess are honorable examples. Webster's 3 major plays,
    also, as well as the aforementioned Cyril Tourneur (unless the play's really by
    Middleton, as is suspected).

    Sorry for going on about this. Later Elizabethan, Jacobean, and Caroline
    period drama is something I care about a fair amount. I was mildly curious
    if there were any particular plays that you tended to read to get into the
    mood, so to speak. I don't think you were "influenced" by these works
    necessarily, except perhaps in the very narrow sense that we're all influenced
    by whatever we read deeply.

    I knew Roger and liked him very much. I published some of his best early work.
    It's been many years, but I seem to recall you published "For a Breath I Tarry" back
    in '66 (one of his better stories) and I think "The Keys to December," which had
    positive qualities, but perhaps isn't in quite the same category.

    But I found that I couldn't get on with his later fantasy which, I'm told, bears some similarity to mine (probably because we shared the same influences). He sent me one of his earliest fantasy novels as a suggested serial and I found it very hard to get on with. I'm sure they improved, but after I essentially turned that down, he stopped sending me stuff.
    Zelazny in the early part of his career seemed to hold the promise of transcending the
    genre's boundaries. I've always liked his novella, "He Who Shapes," not because of its
    absolute level of accomplishment, but because when I read it back in '65, it seemed
    to show the directions where he might develop -- directions not too common in
    American s-f of the time. Something happened to Zelazny in the years that followed.
    It's as if he lost his direction, and he wandered farther and farther from his true
    strengths, and took to writing potboilers in fantasy and s-f. Tom Disch says that
    Zelazny, in a curious way, seemed one of those writers who never grew up. It's a
    not uncommon affliction in s-f. :-[

    I continued to read him, because I kept wondering if he'd ever pull things back together.
    He'd show flashes at times, but we never really quite got anything that hit the levels
    of "For A Breath I Tarry" or "He Who Shapes." A great might-have-been. It's a pity,
    really.

    As someone who doesn't read a lot of contemporary fantasy, I'm largely familiar with that which I read when doing Wizardry and Wild Romance and then a bit of a refresher for the new, current, edition. I've read Pullman and I've read the writers referenced in W&WR. Perhaps I should have read Zelazny's Amber books but believe it or not I wasn't aware they were fantasy epics (which is what W&WR
    was about).
    I personally don't feel you missed anything significant by ignoring (however unintentionally)
    the Amber books, unless completeness was something you were striving for.

    Although it's fair to say that Roger was also 'pre-genre', as I was, I tended to stop being interested in fantasy when it began to show genre characteristics. I admire Gene Wolfe and have a feeling I'd like
    Erickson, but apart from those books I've recommended in relatively recent times, I've read no other fantasy. It doesn't mean I won't go back and have a look at Zelazny some time, but I haven't read any of his novels apart from that first one. This is no reflection on Roger or, indeed, other modern fantasy writers.
    I think back on M. John Harrison's essay from New Worlds, "By Tennyson Out of Disney"
    when I contemplate the fantasy "industry." At the time ('71), I thought he was being
    a little harsh for polemical purposes. I don't feel that way anymore.

    There are, of course, noble exceptions to the fantasy industry wasteland. Many of them
    have been mentioned in MWM, so no need to repeat.

    As I've said before, I'm inclined to 'default' into modernist English social fiction, with Virginia Woolf and Elizabeth Bowen being my favourites.
    Everyone knows about To the Lighthouse, and a movie brought Mrs. Dalloway
    into the public consciousness. I've always been partial to The Waves and
    Between the Acts. As for Bowen, The Death of the Heart is quite good,
    and I like several of her short stories. I suddenly remembered Woolf's Orlando;
    there's a strange production. ;)

    It's also the advice I tend to give starting fantasy writers, as noted here in the past -- if you want to become a fantasy writer, steep yourself in social fiction! If social fiction's your bag, read a lot of imaginative fiction. :)
    I hope some would-be fantasy writers follow your suggestion. That would be a nice
    change of pace.

    LSN

    Leave a comment:


  • Poetgrrl
    replied
    Perhaps now that I'm older, I would have an appreciation for Mother London or King of the City... and Jerry Cornelius... 8O (how on earth did she wind up loving Gormenghast, then??)

    Wouldn't dream of borrowing from Tolkien. It's kind of done to death by now. *sigh* Nip from Steinbeck or Michener on the other hand... 8)

    As far as Dickens... first time I read Tale of Two Cities, I was in the height of the Elric series. I saw Elric in Sydney Carton. Maybe that's reaching, but ... he was his own worst enemy, melancholy, never could get the girl, etc... anyway.... *runs back to library*

    Leave a comment:


  • Michael Moorcock
    replied
    Hell, son, you don't have to go that far.
    (Produces book from behind back). How about starting with this
    little item ?
    Offers King of the City... :) )
    Seriously, one of the interesting things about reading 'realistic' fiction is how the issues don't change a whole lot and even the language, if lively in the first place, often seems surprisingly modern.. Defoe, Dickens or, say, John Galsworthy, all from different centuries, show that human vices and virtues merely change superficially, as fashion changes. A great help in establishing one's own sense of proportion. We learn, among other things, that politics is crooked and a certain kind of businessman is venal and cunning and so on. It doesn't mean we shouldn't work to make the world better, but it does tend to put an end to the myth that past times were somehow nobler and better ordered than they are today. Also, if you pinch from, say, Tolkien, everyone who reads fantasy will know. If you pinch from Joseph Conrad, James Michener or John Steinbeck, you're less likely to get caught. :)

    Leave a comment:


  • Poetgrrl
    replied
    oh gad... social fiction. clearly i'm in over my head here.
    *runs off to library*

    Leave a comment:


  • Michael Moorcock
    replied
    The chief influence, as far as story and characters go, wasn't Jacobean but Gothic (Melmoth and so on). But I used to read Shakespeare and Middleton and the others to soup myself up as far as producing the right kind of heightened language I wanted.
    I knew Roger and liked him very much. I published some of his best early work. But I found that I couldn't get on with his later fantasy which, I'm told, bears some similarity to mine (probably because we shared the same influences). He sent me one of his earliest fantasy novels as a suggested serial and I found it very hard to get on with. I'm sure they improved, but after I essentially turned that down, he stopped sending me stuff. As someone who doesn't read a lot of contemporary fantasy, I'm largely familiar with that which I read when doing Wizardry and Wild Romance and then a bit of a refresher for the new, current, edition. I've read Pullman and I've read the writers referenced in W&WR. Perhaps I should have read Zelazny's Amber books but believe it or not I wasn't aware they were fantasy epics (which is what W&WR
    was about). Although it's fair to say that Roger was also 'pre-genre', as I was, I tended to stop being interested in fantasy when it began to show genre characteristics. I admire Gene Wolfe and have a feeling I'd like
    Erickson, but apart from those books I've recommended in relatively recent times, I've read no other fantasy. It doesn't mean I won't go back and have a look at Zelazny some time, but I haven't read any of his novels apart from that first one. This is no reflection on Roger or, indeed, other modern fantasy writers. As I've said before, I'm inclined to 'default' into modernist English social fiction, with Virginia Woolf and Elizabeth Bowen being my favourites. It's also the advice I tend to give starting fantasy writers, as noted here in the past -- if you want to become a fantasy writer, steep yourself in social fiction! If social fiction's your bag, read a lot of imaginative fiction. :)

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by Poetgrrl
    the actor has to convey intelligence, sensitivity, depth, darkness, brooding, melancholy, passion, evil, innocense... (on and on.) I can't think of anyone who is tall, lean, light and dark, alive and dead, intelligent and emotional all at once.
    That's me in a nutshell! Oh wait, I'm not an actor. Damn.

    ~mE

    Leave a comment:


  • A_Non_Ymous
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael Moorcock
    ... but I'm after actors who are familiar with making Jacobean tragedy convincing. After all, I used to soup myself up on the Jacobeans (as well as Shakespeare) when I was starting a new Elric story and I see this kind of fantasy very much in the Jacobean tradition. Sturm und Drang! But not Grand Guignol, I hasten to add, and probably no more than a touch of 19th century Gothic of the
    Melmoth variety, though it's all part of the same tradition. ...
    That's a trifle curious. There were similar overtones in the early stories and novels of
    the late Roger Zelazny -- hardly a surprise since he specialized in Jacobean drama
    in graduate school. He admitted the influence on a few occasions, as I recall. The
    results were not, shall we say, uniformly successful. ;)

    Was there any Jacobean dramatist that you feel had a strong contribution to these
    stories? I always thought I saw in Elric a bit of Vindice, from Cyril Tourneur's
    The Revenger's Tragedy. (Yes, I know that there are a number of critics who
    attribute that play to Thomas Middleton; it could be true.)

    LSN

    Leave a comment:


  • Poetgrrl
    replied
    i've thought about this for many years. i wanted to see David Bowie after seeing Labyrinth but he's older now, so...
    i wondered about Rutger Hauer but he's older now...
    i thought about Keanu Reeves but he's stiff as a board... :roll:

    the actor has to convey intelligence, sensitivity, depth, darkness, brooding, melancholy, passion, evil, innocense... (on and on.) I can't think of anyone who is tall, lean, light and dark, alive and dead, intelligent and emotional all at once.

    but PLEASE if there's a god in heaven PLEASE keep Val Kilmer and Tom Cruise's hands off him!!!!!!! :mrgreen:

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by clarkenstein
    Any ideas for the Red Archer MM? I always thought of him as someone with very dashing 40s 50s kinda looks like Erol Flynn.
    Rackhir as a Robin Hood character? Well, why not. I have always imagined Rackhir as an oriental character with Persian or Indian flavour. After all, he comes from an eastern land with a caste-system. But a character like Flynn would be a great idea, a roquish but charismatic Champion of the Balance!

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Any ideas for the Red Archer MM? I always thought of him as someone with very dashing 40s 50s kinda looks like Erol Flynn.

    For some reason i cant stop thinking of a young Micheal Palin as Moonglum...dont know why.Just keep taking the tablets i guess and hope it goes away :oops:

    Leave a comment:


  • Michael Moorcock
    replied
    Johnny Depp is a great screen actor, but I'm after actors who are familiar with making Jacobean tragedy convincing. After all, I used to soup myself up on the Jacobeans (as well as Shakespeare) when I was starting a new Elric story and I see this kind of fantasy very much in the Jacobean tradition. Sturm und Drang! But not Grand Guignol, I hasten to add, and probably no more than a touch of 19th century Gothic of the
    Melmoth variety, though it's all part of the same tradition. Depp's a touch too post-modern for my taste, even though I've liked him in everything I've seen apart from Once Upon A Time in Mexico, where I found his irony a touch lazy. But it was a crap movie, too. Shouldn't maybe say so, since the director's a local guy...

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    jonny deep is a real actor, look at his performance in edward scissor-hand

    huo do you need in the role of glomoon ?

    (sorry for the terrible english i'm italianO)

    Leave a comment:


  • Adaz
    replied
    Hi - I'm new to this forum, and though you all seem very friendly, I'm still going to just duck in quickly, make a suggestion and then scramble out and see if anyone throws stuff at me. (Some forums can be prickly paths, as I'm sure some of you know).

    Ok - my suggestion for director would be John Boorman.

    Why? Well, Zardoz of course! (hehehe)

    I liked Excalibur, Deliverance and The General too...

    Adaz

    Leave a comment:


  • mickey
    replied
    Yeah Dee, I love the Cable Guy and we are not alone there. Although most people may think it's stupid, it does have a small cult following. Magnificent!

    " I was blowdrying my hair and thought I heard the phone ring, that ever happen to you? Anyways, give me a buzz and we'll talk about it."

    Leave a comment:


  • DeeCrowSeer
    replied
    Originally posted by Doc
    Maybe you're the only one brave enough to admit to seeing Peter Pan, Dee.
    Worse than that, I own the DVD! I'm not ashamed!! (Well, not with a computer to hide behind anyway)

    There's a fantastic deleted scene where Mr. Darling insists on being carried everywhere in a kennel as punishment for driving the children away. I can see why they deleted it, but the sight of a grown man trying to concentrate on his office accounts while sitting "in the dog house" is worth the rental price alone, in my humble opinion.

    D...

    "I do believe in fairies, I do, I do!!!"

    Leave a comment:

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