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Elric Movie (Thread part II)

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  • #91
    Maybe Rome was a bad example for Europe. Maybe the muslims ( whose culture was influenced by the Greeks) were a bad example for European Christians. However, does anyone realy want to live like the vikings, druids, ect? I think Europeans would be smarter to make a culture that they can relate to. Lets face the truth the majority of us ( and I think everyone on this board ) would disagree with things such as human sacrifice. I don't even think the majority of Greeks could relate to the ancient Greeks. ( Take for example the Greek lawyers sueing the director of the movie Alexander because of the portrayal of Alexander's sexuality).

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    • #92
      The above post was mine.

      Galadriel

      Comment


      • #93
        Thanks for the Luther link. The New Labour government is currently attempting to introduce a law against speech "likely to stir" up religious hatred - defined as: "hatred against a group of persons defined by reference to religious belief or lack of religious belief�. Note some problems with this? First - as has been observed - hatred of other religions is actually a written tenet of some religions. Secondly - there is nothing to prevent the religious from stirring up hatred against groups defined by something other than reference to religious belief or lack of religious belief - by sexuality for instance. Blair likes to pander to the religious - because he wants them to deliver social services for free. They've already been excepted from laws preventing discrimination on sexuality grounds in employment.

        Re. the Nazi stuff - I understand they had a belief that the Aryan race originated in Tibet, and sent several delegations there. Much of this stuff is straight out of 19thC occultism; Madam Blavatsky, etc. Something of an anti-Enlightenment backlash ... dark Romanticism. Has anyone read "The Spear of Destiny" by Trevor Ravenscroft, by the way? This is one of the source books on the nazi-occult link - fun read, but I must say quite unbelievable in places..
        \"...an ape reft of his tail, and grown rusty at climbing, who yet feels himself to be a symbol and the frail representative of Omnipotence in a place that is not home.\" James Branch Cabell

        Comment


        • #94
          People have started worrying about Hindu 'Aryanism' in this respect. I wonder if others responded to Ayn Rand as I did when young (haven't read her since). It seemed to be work written by a fascist, about fascists for fascists.

          Pre-order or Buy my latest titles in Europe:
          The Whispering Swarm: Book One of the Sanctuary of the White Friars - The Laughter of Carthage - Byzantium Endures - London Peculiar and Other Nonfiction
          Doctor Who: The Coming of the Terraphiles - Kizuna: Fiction for Japan - Modem Times 2.0 - The Sunday Books - The Sundered Worlds


          Pre-order or Buy my latest titles in the USA:
          The Laughter of Carthage - Byzantium Endures - London Peculiar and Other Nonfiction - The Sunday Books - Doctor Who: The Coming of the Terraphiles
          Kizuna: Fiction for Japan - The Sundered Worlds - The Winds of Limbo - Modem Times 2.0 - Elric: Swords and Roses

          Comment


          • #95
            That which you call your soul or spirit is your consciousness, and that which you call 'free will' is your mind's freedom to think or not, the only will you have, your only freedom. This is the choice that controls all the choices you make and determines your life and character.Thus Objectivism rejects any form of determinism, the belief that man is a victim of forces beyond his control (such as God, fate, upbringing, genes, or economic conditions).
            Ayn Rand, "the virtue of selfishness"

            crap.

            Comment


            • #96
              Adlerian I admire your desire to see the good side of people *sigh*...but unfortunately the settlers had a far greater problem with the fact that they wanted what the Native Americans had: land. Before you waste time reading yet another book on American 'history' written by some mealy-mouthed apologist I would recommend you read this book:
              http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...235080-0385555
              IMHO the best, most honest to goodness look at what really happened...

              Comment


              • #97
                Adlerian please spare me the whole 'Some Indians were bad too' argument . It's like saying that the Jews deserved what Hitler did to them because some of them weren't nice...That fact has little to do with the crime against humanity in question IMO. Read:

                Historical and Current Perspectives
                David Barsamian interviews Ward Churchill

                Ward Churchill is professor of American Indian Studies in the Center for Studies in Ethnicity and Race in America (CSERA) at the University of Colorado at Boulder. Among his many books are Fantasies of the Master Race, Struggle for the Land, and Indians Are Us? His two new books are Since the Predator Came and Draconian Measures: History of FBI Political Repression.

                Barsamian: The war in the Balkans, in the former Yugoslavia, has made the term "ethnic cleansing" quite current. Native Americans have their own experience of ethnic cleansing.

                Churchill: "Ethnic cleansing" is a relatively polite euphemism, I suppose, for just plain, ordinary old genocide. Genocide is not unique. It's pervasive throughout history. Native America, both north and south, experienced a very sustained and incredibly impactful process of genocide, extending over a period of three to five hundred years, depending on which locale you're talking about.

                Barsamian:When we take the hemisphere, North and South, various numbers are given of indigenous peoples that were here before the Europeans, the "predators," as you call them, came. What is a minimum-maximum figure?

                Churchill:I won't even bother with a minimum figure. These accrue from official sources such as the Smithsonian Institution and are ridiculously low. The method of manipulating the data to make them so low has been amply revealed by Francis Jennings and others over a fairly long period of time. At present, the best estimates that I'm aware of bracket it at somewhere between 100 and 150 million people, hemispherically speaking. That is circa 1500.

                Barsamian:And after the predator?

                Churchill:Approximately 97 to 98 percentile liquidation of population by approximately 1890.

                Barsamian:Adolph Hitler took note of the treatment of Native Americans.

                Churchill:Hitler took note of Native Americans, indigenous people of the Americas, specifically within the area of the U.S. and Canada. He used the treatment of native people, the policies and processes that were imposed upon them, as a model for what he articulated as being Lebensraumpolitik, the politics of living space. In essence, Hitler took the notion of a drive from east to west, clearing the land as the invading population went and resettling it with Anglo-Saxon stock, primarily, as a model by which he drove from west to east into Russia, displacing, relocating, dramatically shifting or liquidating populations to clear the land and replace it with what he called "superior breeding stock," meaning Germanic peoples. It was essentially the same process, and he was very conscious of the fact that he was basing his policies in the prior experience of the Anglo-American population, or Nordic population, as he called it, in the area north of the Rio Grande River...

                ...Barsamian:Certain elements of U.S. society romanticize native peoples, Indians. I'm sure some of those find their way into your classrooms. How do you deal with that?

                Churchill:I de-romanticize. The whole thrust of my instruction goes toward re-humanizing those who have been de-humanized. Indians are either romanticized or demonized, but they're never dealt with as human beings with actual human dimensions, human frailties, human achievements.

                There is a profound historical legacy in the U.S., going back to what one scholar calls the "founding finaglers," people like George Washington, for example, describing Indians as "wild beasts of the forest" and "savage as the wolf." Thomas Jefferson chimed in with also very judicious comments about Indian peoples.

                Jefferson said, "Driving them like wolves into the stony mountains." Which incidentally was a fairly adequate description of U.S. policy at the time. These were good reflections of the overall public sensibility, and I think probably goes to the demonizing trend. You could probably divide the viewpoint of Americans, founding fathers or no, into two general categories. I've already described them as being romanticizing or demonizing. When in direct contact with Indians as autochthonous entities, demonization was always the mode. Once the Indians had been cleared, obliterated, then they could be romanticized, in the abstract. Jefferson in particular tended to do both, because he had a foot in each camp. On the frontier, where there was actual contact with Indians, his policy was virulent and his rhetoric of demonization was virulent. But also he lived in Virginia, where the Indians had been pretty much eradicated by the time of his birth, so he could romanticize at the same time.

                Barsamian: I'm not going to give you this twenty-dollar bill, but I just want to show you the picture of the great Indian killer, Andrew Jackson, who graces the twenty-dollar bill, two-term President of the U.S.

                Churchill:Andrew Jackson, who had horses' bridles made of Indian skin and bragged about it in his campaigns. He claimed that he had never fought an Indian he didn't kill and never killed an Indian he didn't scalp and that the scalps were available for inspection in his personal residence. That got him elected President. That speaks well to the public sensibility in the U.S., too...

                ...Barsamian:Presumably in this new world order that's been envisioned by the contractors with America, all Native Americans need to do is, like the Italians and the Jews and the Armenians before them or after them, just pull themselves up by the bootstraps and get to work.

                Churchill:Of course. Having taken away the entirety of the basis for the traditional economy that would allow the American Indians to live as well or better than any population in the world prior to the invasion, they're told to bootstrap themselves up by the very people who took their resources away from them at the point of a gun. Ultimately, what Indians are being told and have been told all along is that all they need to do is to stop being Indians and they'll be all right. Just be something other than what you are ...

                Barsamian:Leave It to Beaver.

                Churchill:Leave It to Beaver. And leave me your land, by the way. Leave me your resources. Free.

                Barsamian:That's a compassionate thing to do.

                Churchill:That's fair. That's what we call a level playing field. I hear Republicans and Libertarians and so forth talking about property rights, but they stop talking about property rights as soon as the subject of American Indians comes up, because they know fully well, perhaps not in a fully articulated, conscious form, but they know fully well that the basis for the very system of endeavor and enterprise and profitability to which they are committed and devoted accrues on the basis of theft of the resources of someone else. They are in possession of stolen property. They know it. They all know it. It's a dishonest endeavor from day one.
                So what it boils down to is that this happened precisely because there were not enough people of European descent who objected to what was going on to make a difference. Sad, since many were getting more land and riches they didn't really care who these were taken from. If it meant killing Indians, no problem, they weren't thought of as human anyway. Is it any wonder then that the Nazis carried out a similar deed centuries later?

                "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
                - Edmund Burke

                I couldn't agree more with that statement...

                Comment


                • #98
                  To deviate slightly - thought everyone might find this interesting:

                  Dark Materials film-maker quits
                  Chris Weitz
                  Chris Weitz previously directed About a Boy and American Pie
                  Chris Weitz has resigned as director of the film adaptation of Philip Pullman's fantasy trilogy His Dark Materials.

                  "The technical challenges of making such an epic are more than I can undertake at this point," said Weitz, who previously directed About a Boy.

                  He will remain as the trilogy's screenwriter and film studio New Line Cinema is searching for a new director.

                  Earlier this month Weitz removed references to God from the adaptation after New Line expressed concern.

                  'High point'

                  The award-winning book trilogy - Northern Lights, The Subtle Knife and The Amber Spyglass - tell the story of Oxford girl Lyra Belacqua.

                  Philip Pullman CBE
                  Philip Pullman's books have become international best-sellers
                  Weitz described his work on the film of The Golden Compass, the US name for first book in the series Northern Lights, as "an extraordinary high point of my career".

                  "It will be an extraordinary film, but at this point in my life I am not the right director to bring it to pass," said Weitz, who also directed American Pie.

                  "I look forward to retaining my place as screenwriter and helping to bring Mr Pullman's epic vision to cinematic life. I deeply appreciate his support, and the understanding of everyone at New Line in allowing me to step aside."


                  We have such a strong screenplay I'm confident we'll have real interest from A-level film-makers
                  Toby Emmerich, New Line Cinema
                  New Line production president Toby Emmerich said: "Chris over-delivered on the script, and I can only respect him for being realistic about the physical, emotional and technical demands of the project.

                  "His Dark Materials is an amazing story, and at this point we have such a strong screenplay I'm confident we'll have real interest from A-level film-makers."

                  The Golden Compass will be produced by Deborah Forte, who previously produced Clifford's Really Big Movie, and is due for release in 2006.
                  Source - BBC.com
                  Batman: It's a low neighborhood, full of rumpots. They're used to curious sights, which they attribute to alcoholic delusions.

                  Robin: Gosh, drink is sure a filthy thing, isn't it? I'd rather be dead than unable to trust my own eyes!

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    I am opposed to the blanket idea that Indians were good people that that the settlers were bad people. That’s too simplistic for me. Human relations are pretty complex and bigotry and misunderstandings run through everything.
                    This of course denies/justifies what was systematically done to every single Native tribe by the English? First of all they had no right to BE here in the first place and remained (and survived) thanks to the kindness of the Wampanoag, whom they promptly slaughtered. They did not only 'defend' themselves from peoples hostile to them, no. They turned on everyone including the tribes that *helped* them. The reason again? Greed, pure and simple. You and I both know this, so there is no need to sugar-coat the obvious. This alone speaks volumes about the settler's overall philosophy at the time. More reasonable groups like the Quakers were as I mentioned, an exception to the rule unfortunately. People would get support from the government to illegaly squat on land that didn't belong to them. Native American land as Churchill pointed out and resources...musn't forget those. So everyone who benefited from these acts and did nothing when it was in their power to do so are too, partially responsible, especially when they directly profited from the implimentation of these genocidal policies.

                    Comment


                    • Can't disagree with that. Worth noting that most 'Indians' learned very early about British/US law and tried to work within it, often employing very eloquent spokespeople. Even when they tried to work within our laws, they still got screwed. This isn't to say that the natives were naturally noble people -- just that they WERE the victims of genocide, which our religion and enlightenment views agreed was a bad thing.
                      Though some tribes also practised genocide, they weren't exactly setting themselves up as moral superiors, either. It required extraordinary hypocrisy on our (settlers) part first to goad the Indians to a point where they could ONLY resist by force of arms, secondly to characterise them as savages because they resorted to the methods we'd originally used against them. Even Apaches weren't the 'Huns of the Prairie' (as Edgar Rice Burroughs famously described them) until the Spanish and later the Anglos began attacking them. We often managed to discover settled agrarian/hunters and turn them into nomadic warrior societies. Larry
                      McMurtry recently reviewed two interesting books on pre-Lewis and Clark civilisations in a NY Review of Books, couple of months ago. Novels like his and Blood Meridian have done much to show how 'we' created the 'savages'.

                      Pre-order or Buy my latest titles in Europe:
                      The Whispering Swarm: Book One of the Sanctuary of the White Friars - The Laughter of Carthage - Byzantium Endures - London Peculiar and Other Nonfiction
                      Doctor Who: The Coming of the Terraphiles - Kizuna: Fiction for Japan - Modem Times 2.0 - The Sunday Books - The Sundered Worlds


                      Pre-order or Buy my latest titles in the USA:
                      The Laughter of Carthage - Byzantium Endures - London Peculiar and Other Nonfiction - The Sunday Books - Doctor Who: The Coming of the Terraphiles
                      Kizuna: Fiction for Japan - The Sundered Worlds - The Winds of Limbo - Modem Times 2.0 - Elric: Swords and Roses

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by TheAdlerian
                        My point is that most people are not really involved in mass movements and trends that go on. So, I am not sure that people are morally culpable for things that they are too impotent to change.
                        Ahem...
                        *drags shambled heap that years ago might have been a dead beaten horse onto your screen*
                        What about the Nazi's "just following orders"?

                        I think it is the duty of any humanitarian to at very least not participate in injustice.
                        Ones responsibility in taking an actively oppositional role and to what degree is not as clear to me.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by TheAdlerian
                          Most citizens of Germany were not following orders because they weren’t even getting any.

                          How will your life look when a lens is turned on it two hundred years from now? By whom are your clothes made? Do you spin them out of cotton that you picked or do children in Sri Lanka make them. The least that you could do is make your own clothes. How hard would that be as compared to what kids go through in third world countries to make clothes for rich people. You should also walk everywhere. Then you should go to Africa and help poor people that were made that way by European colonialism. This would all be great but I bet that you really spend most of your time working and trying to make a little money to take care of your basic needs.

                          Not to get on you, although your were sarcastic, but I think that lots of people throughout history were just getting through their time on Earth with little power over anything. Some are even mentally paralyzed by the weight of it all.
                          If you are refering to the "dead horse" comment, that wasn't meant as sarcasm. I said it merely because of the volume of other posts about Nazi's, likely due to their appearance in Michaels work.
                          And as far as the "following orders" thing, I wasn't talking about the citizens of Germany, I meant THE ACTUAL NAZIS.

                          'In 1961, the world watched the first televised courtroom trial as a Jerusalem court tried Nazi SS Lieutenant Colonel Adolf Eichmann for crimes against the Jewish people. Eichmann's role in deporting the Jews of Europe to concentration camps made him the target of a fifteen-year manhunt by Israeli agents. His defense, like that of other Nazis, was that he was "just following orders."'

                          http://www.pbs.org/eichmann/intro.htm

                          To your point begining "How will your life look when a lens is turned on it..." I ask, for all of us, to what degree does knowing of an injustice and not do everything in our power to oppose it make us complicit?

                          Comment


                          • Your Eichmann example is slightly different - as he was an active participant in the genocide. That being the case its reasonable to ask the question - "didn't you know that what you were doing is wrong?"

                            The issue as to whether all colonists are directly responsible for the genocide of the native american tribes and their culture is perhaps a bit more of a grey area. Is the crime of negligence and being complicit with events as bad as being the butcher? I'm not sure - If you follow that line - is it fair to say all English citizens were responsible for the atrocities committed by the British Empire? Similarly should the French be held responsible for what's happened to the African nations they controlled?

                            Similarly you might ask 'is it fair and reasonable to judge the actions of people living in different times (with different pressures than we face now) with today's moral yardstick?'

                            With regards the native americans there have been admissions that what happened was wrong, but it is of course a few hundred years to take back what happened....

                            It is a tragedy - especially when you consider how many indian modern reservations are little more than ghettos - beset by significant social problems, alcoholism, unemployment and high incidences of suicide. They are outcasts in their own land - but its not really theirs is it? Its on loan from the federal government.
                            Batman: It's a low neighborhood, full of rumpots. They're used to curious sights, which they attribute to alcoholic delusions.

                            Robin: Gosh, drink is sure a filthy thing, isn't it? I'd rather be dead than unable to trust my own eyes!

                            Comment


                            • Thanks for the article devilchicken. I hate to say this but could the Elric movie be doomed? The Earthsea tv series was doomed. ( And in my opinion the Earthsea books are doomed as well). Michael Moorcock that is interesting that you point how the indians knew British and US law. It should be intersting to note that the Cherokee aurged well that the under US law they had the rights to govern themselves and own their land that was given to them buy law. They even pointed out that if a white man for example killed an indian on their land then the white man would be tried by them. If it happened on American own soil then he would be tried by America.

                              Comment


                              • Might be worth mentioning here that Hitler was very admiring of American race laws and incorporated many of them into German Nazi law. America's psychic history has taught it that genocide and racialism work for the benefit of the (white) majority. That you can 'get away with it'. Europe's psychic history has recently taught it the opposite.
                                I read Ursula's very good piece on what happened to her books and note that she was represented by William Morris, whom I'd have thought knew a thing or two about movie rights. Yet clearly her contract was not as good as mine. That said, nothing can guarantee quality. I trust the Weitz brothers. I even trust the people I talked to at Universal. The situation COULD change a little bit, but not as much as it changed for Ursula, it seems. One thing which might be worth pointing out is that many of these rights were sold before LOTR was such a success. They were sold at a time when very few fantasy movies were being made and very few film rights to fantasy books were being sold. Ursula might have thought it was the best deal she was going to get at the time. My contract, for instance, even covers the possibility of an Elric stage musical! My agents learned from experience that nothing is impossible, these days.

                                Pre-order or Buy my latest titles in Europe:
                                The Whispering Swarm: Book One of the Sanctuary of the White Friars - The Laughter of Carthage - Byzantium Endures - London Peculiar and Other Nonfiction
                                Doctor Who: The Coming of the Terraphiles - Kizuna: Fiction for Japan - Modem Times 2.0 - The Sunday Books - The Sundered Worlds


                                Pre-order or Buy my latest titles in the USA:
                                The Laughter of Carthage - Byzantium Endures - London Peculiar and Other Nonfiction - The Sunday Books - Doctor Who: The Coming of the Terraphiles
                                Kizuna: Fiction for Japan - The Sundered Worlds - The Winds of Limbo - Modem Times 2.0 - Elric: Swords and Roses

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