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Is Arioch, Jagged, or Jagged, Arioch?

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  • Is Arioch, Jagged, or Jagged, Arioch?

    Well, my 'Is Arioch, Jagged, or Jagged, Arioch' bit the big one when the board crashed,

    I hadnt a chance to read all the replies before the board went down and was curious to find out more information on the Ether series and to hear more opinions on this A/J issue.

    I also remembered someone (Thanos?) posted Arioch's drivers license and I didnt get a chance to make a copy of it

    Can someone post that pic again?

    And can someone tell me more about the Ether series? Ironially I just got book two of the series from eBay ^_^ Theres a copy of Blood up now as well but I dont have it yet.

    Glad to see the board back up!!!!!!!!!!1 Yey!
    Ultra Magnus to Sandstorm. \"I\'ve never seen anything this beautiful in the entire galaxy. . . Alright, give me the bomb.\"

  • #2
    As luck would have it, I was working on a reply for that thread the other day and didn't have time to finish it because I had things to do here at work. I saved it to the desktop to finish later and never got around to it. But now, here it is:


    Originally posted by Omaru
    IIRC, isn't Jagged at some point revealed to have taken the hobby of creating miniature universes and screwing around with them just for fun? Or else it was something most of the Dancers had dabbled in, but Jagged sort of took a special interest in? Perhaps some incarnations of the eternal champion are inhabitants of these mini-verses. Maybe Jagged is Arioch. Or chooses to be at times.

    Originally posted by RCraigRobinson
    this has always been my take on jagged/arioch from elric at the end of time and it's only an analogy as unclear as the topic:
    is the finger of your hand you or are you the finger of your hand?
    i liken it as iterations of the same function; a fractal of personality
    it is possibly a matter of scale or phased channels... the same radio station sounds differently at fractionally varied wavelengths, does that make it the same or aspects of a whole...

    Originally posted by Jules
    There's similar things made more explicit in the Second Ether books - different characters being expressed as different entities in different branches and scales of the multiverse - i.e. Quelch is at one point a demonic god. Maybe he was neither Arioch or Jagged - both might have been Jack playing a round in the Game of Time . .

    For anyone serious about divining the workings of the multiverse, the Second Ether books are invaluable in that they introduce in a straightforward and concrete (well, for Moorcock) manner the concept of scale that is vital to an understanding of how all these various universes and continuums (and identities) exist simultaneously. For an exploration of archetypes try the Cornelius Chronicles, along with Dancers at the End of Time and A Nomad of the Time Streams. Cross-referenced, they create a pretty good picture of the underlying concept regarding identity in the multiverse.

    As for a direct comment on topic, I believe that there are a few archetypical cosmic personalities that are each represented in different individuals throughout the planes of the multiverse. Arioch and Jagged for example are facets of the same cosmic persona, whereas the various incarnations of the EC are for the most part facets of another. Some incarnations (Jagged, for instance) have achieved an understanding of this concept and that of scale, and have developed the ability to move among their various kindred incarnations throughout the multiverse.

    As sort of an example, imagine yourself as the ultimate representation of the Eternal Champion. Your consciousness represents the cosmic archetypical personality that is the combination of all your various incarnations. These incarnations are represented by the cells that make up your body. You are the whole, and your life is the source of their existence, therefore you are a part of each one. But a whole can not be made from nothing- therefore they are the source of your existence and each one is a part of you.

    Your consciousness is fluid and can be directed throughout the various parts of your body. For example, when you want to pick something up it is focused on the cells making up the muscles that move your hand. While each cell lives, dies, and performs its role independently, it is the pool of your consciousness from which they draw their direction although individually incognizant of their shared existence and fate as a whole entity.

    Now imagine that the fragments of your consciousness that inhabit these cells have each developed their own individual self-awareness. Each fragment becomes an entity with its own thoughts and personality separate from, yet inevitably influenced by, the consciousness from which it is sprung. With the individuality and self-awareness that has been developed by these fragments comes also individual will.

    Most of these multitude of fragments, while now self aware are still ignorant of each other and their shared existence. There are however some who have discovered this secret and are aware of the existence of others, although they may not understand what they are all a part of.

    Back to the fluid nature of consciousness as described above, consciousness can be channeled by an effort of focus and will throughout the body. Now that these fragments possess their own will, provided that it is strong enough, these same channels are available to them, allowing them to travel throughout the multiverse wherever their kindred fragments exist.

    And time is just kind of a filing system worked out to keep all this shit in order so we don't go crazy trying to find stuff.

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    • #3
      Re: Try this thread again

      Originally posted by Starscream
      And can someone tell me more about the Ether series?
      I'm sorry we lost that thread, too. I vaguely remember agreeing with Jules very strongly about the second ether...

      Anyway, a synopsis of the second ether sequence is a little bit difficult, but I can hit some hight points. The series--at one level-- is a summation of Mike's EC and multiverse ideas. He introduces Jugadors, who are like gamblers playing the Game of Time, which is a little like playing out all of a lifetime's (or maybe one reality's) possibilites in a game of chance and maybe fate. The sequence opens in an alternate American South, in which a tear in the fabric of the multiverse (the Biloxi fault) has opened. The Jugadors have the opportunity to play with pure possibility.

      The series (especially Blood and The War Amongst the Angels) follows four characters who make sense of the many scales of existence that the game of time reveals. This sequence opens up the possibility that Jagged and Arioch may not only be the same entity, but may be a fictional entity created in a round of the Game of Time.

      To tell you much more might spoil some of the reading. If you understand the basic ideas of the multiverse and the many facets of the Eternal Champion, and like the way that those ideas play with reality or existence, you'll probably love the second ether.

      For what it's worth, the second ether sequence makes allusions to many earlier characters and character combinations, some of which are very subtle. For those who have read it, my favorite is when Jack takes the helm of the ship taking everyone to the War in the Heavens, and stares ahead blindly. I saw this as Jack being the blind helmsman in Sailor on the Seas of Fate, which made me re-think Elric and Corum.

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      • #4
        Thanks for the replies and info about the Ether series.

        I believe I was looking for more of a linear opinion on the A/J issue but I suppose that cant be done. Glad you saved your reply and was able to post it Omaru.
        Ultra Magnus to Sandstorm. \"I\'ve never seen anything this beautiful in the entire galaxy. . . Alright, give me the bomb.\"

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        • #5
          i didn't think the End of Time folk were literally the chaos lords, but I liked how their technology had caught up with the chaos lord's manifesting abilities with the power rings. Like that Arthur C Clarke quote, all magic becomes technology or some such.

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          • #6
            Also why was Jagged living as a cruel judge in the past, was he just sentencing people for fun or experiement.

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            • #7
              Wow!

              Very interesting...i find that once you have a dig in to how all of Mr Moorcock's
              books relate to one another then there is just no end to it. Jagged makes for a very plausible Arioch, in my own humble opinion.
              Last edited by Kymba334; 11-17-2011, 03:19 PM.
              Mwana wa simba ni simba

              The child of a lion is also a lion - Swahili Wisdom

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              • #8
                I suspect that producing such a volume of complex inter woven works over such an outstanding number of years may just have have blurred some of the 'conceptual continuity'
                .....but isn't that what makes Mr Moorcock's character's,themes and concepts so fascinating and generates so much speculative debate and indeed humour?

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                • #9
                  I'm re-reading The End of All Songs right now, so I can't resist putting in my thoughts. I think Jagged does make for a plausible manifestation, incarnation, however it should be put, of Arioch. You could make a pretty compelling list of their similarities, and reference to other books. Of course, you could probably make an equally compelling case that he's not Arioch.

                  I enjoy not knowing for sure, but I also enjoy speculating!

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