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  • #31
    [quote="Doc"]
    Originally posted by Bill
    The industry should stop and consider that declining sales could be attributed to the crap they're selling, and the way they sell their souls to promote it almost exclusively on Clear Channel stations, which have playlists that are only about 25 songs deep. And what ever happened to labels developing artists? Artists are losing record deals after moving 400,000 units because they supposedly aren't profitable. I'm not a business person, and I know label politics are tricky (one Britney Spears supports 10 low selling "artistic" bands), but I'm pretty sure that I could find a way to make a profit off of 400,000 cds.

    Format isn't the enemy of the music industry. The industry might have to look in the mirror.
    Doc:

    I'm a musician, so you're preaching to the choir with me. A friend of mine is in a band that scored a Number 1 single on their debut album (I have no idea how many total units they moved, but I'd think it was substantial given a number one single) and their label "rewarded" them by refusing to release their second record. Why? Because the label just didn't see "another number 1 hit" in the new material they'd submitted. So, they lost their deal.

    Incredible. As you said, whatever happened to "developing" an artist? Don't you think these guys earned a shot at a second record after hitting a homerun on their first? The whole system is a mess. A cutthroat mess at that.

    Nick.

    Comment


    • #32
      I think the industry deserves what they are getting. They burn through artisits and have lowered the over all quality of product (the lack of selection of content specifically) and have raised prices. Acknowledging the illegality of stealing content, something even better has happened to the industry that they can't throw money at.

      In the case that I own CDs and can rip them to mp3 for my personal enjoyment, I am free to put into any combination all the songs I own. I order them by category or other algorythm with the tools of my selection. What is the ramification of that? The album format is obsolete.

      Their only recourse is to lower the price of CDs.
      The cat spread its wings and flew high into the air, hovering to keep pace with them as they moved cautiously toward the city. Then, as they climbed over the rubble of what had once been a gateway and began to make their way through piles of weed-grown masonry, the cat flew to the squat building with the yellow dome upon its roof. It flew twice around the dome and then came back to settle on Jhary's shoulder. - The King of the Swords

      Comment


      • #33
        Isn't it the cost to manufacture a single CD $5 usd?
        Yet here in the stores, the average full-length CD ranges
        from $13 to $18-- a mark-up (is that the correct term?)
        of over 2-fold.
        There are so many newer technologies now.
        Why haven't the prices dropped?
        \"Bush\'s army of barmy bigots is the worst thing that\'s happened to the US in some years...\"
        Michael Moorcock - 3am Magazine Interview

        Comment


        • #34
          Berry, you said it well whe you said the album is obsolete. It seems that only really well established artists can get away with creating a real album. They're often on labels for prestige, not just for sales. Everyone else is pushed to do singles, even though record companies make little money on the sales of singles, and songwriters, not record companies, get royalties on radio airplay. However, record companies still sell their souls to commercial radio, hoping that airplay will translate into record sales, which often isn't the case. When it doesn't, you get those acts with a song on the charts who lose their record deals.

          What stinks about the whole mess is that both musicians and their audiences are getting shafted.

          Maybe if labels let musicians write albums, instead of a collection of potential singles (or worse--two singles and filler material) people would go from the radio dial or the download to the record store. I would love to have more reasons to go. Instead, they give people reasons to split up material, since it isn't meaningful together anyway.

          I guess what I'm really saying is that record companies push a product that they cultivate poorly, from which they make little money. I'm no businessperson, but...

          Maybe I'm just a bitter relic, longing for the days when "side 1" and "side 2" actually meant something. :D


          Most importantly, good luck with your music Nick!

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Jerico
            Isn't it the cost to manufacture a single CD $5 usd?
            Yet here in the stores, the average full-length CD ranges
            from $13 to $18-- a mark-up (is that the correct term?)
            of over 2-fold.
            There are so many newer technologies now.
            Why haven't the prices dropped?
            I think it's actually costs less than that.

            The rest is promotion, distribution, and administration. Some of the money might even make it to the artist.

            I think I know your response to this, Jer, but do you really believe that record companies will pass the savings of new technologies on to the consumer? As long as we're pavlovian enough to keep paying the $16 bucks (because that's what we've been conditioned to pay), the companies will keep telling us that's the only way they can stay in business.

            Comment


            • #36
              Jerico - it must be closer to a mere $1 USD to produce the physical media of a CD (CD, Booklet, Jewel Case). Production costs are a separate matter. CDs probably wholesale at around $4-5 USD. Which means that even if a store doubles its cost, CDs should only cost around $10 USD max, and everyone is being very well paid even so.

              I'm just guessing at these numbers, but I bet I'm close. In fact, in terms of the larger music industry, I bet my numbers are high. My numbers are probably what it would cost the average person to put together a CD. Per unit costs drop the more units manufactured.

              Nowadays, a digital home studio might max out at around $10-15K USD. But obviously that's an investment that could pay off continually thereafter. Of course it would also be nice to think that one could invest a modest sum in one's art and still manage to break even, maybe even turn a profit.

              Now I'm no expert, but I bet with minimal investment but with extra other efforts one could do quite well self-publishing music (or really anything for that matter), and then advertise it online.

              We are reaching the end of the gatekeepers, and they are scrambling for protection from legislators. These middlemen are something I've never thought actually had a legitimate purpose, they were always just standing in the way.

              Since I know you read comics - consider how many truly quality comics have been self-published. Consider how many have extensive creator control and copyright ownership even if they aren't self-published. Now just expand that to music, to books, to anything...

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by AriochRIP
                Doc:

                I'm a musician, so you're preaching to the choir with me. A friend of mine is in a band that scored a Number 1 single on their debut album (I have no idea how many total units they moved, but I'd think it was substantial given a number one single) and their label "rewarded" them by refusing to release their second record. Why? Because the label just didn't see "another number 1 hit" in the new material they'd submitted. So, they lost their deal.

                Incredible. As you said, whatever happened to "developing" an artist? Don't you think these guys earned a shot at a second record after hitting a homerun on their first? The whole system is a mess. A cutthroat mess at that.

                Nick.
                Interesting. Well sounds like your friend's band signed to a "corporate label." Perhaps this shows why it's smarter to start off on an Indie label first.
                I believe most successful bands do it that way. I guess that it allows a band to avoid getting a "blacksheep" stigma attached to them-- ie. "This band can't sell albums. They were on <insert record company name here> and they got dropped." Not to mention you have creative freedom on Indie labels-- people who actually like music, that may well not have guys at the top who went to business school and aren't true music fans.
                Soundgarden is a good example. There's an article on them in the Alternative Music thread in the Forum. They avoided signing to a major label for a long time. Probably because of the reasons I just mentioned. I think it takes a degree of intelligence, if not business savvy in order to become a successful artist-- or rather, a successful artist with a degree of longevity. Nowadays 3 years is longevity! Indie labels are responsible for bringing out the best new music anyway.
                All that I just wrote is my opinion and my speculation. There is no scientific formula for success in entertainment in my opinion. If there is, it is:
                talent + creativity + new ideas + intelligence + business savvy + hard work + obsession + luck. Maybe I missed one or two variables. (charisma? looks?)
                There are probably a million people who can sing better then Britney Spears and Sheryl Crow, but does that mean they put out an album that sells?
                The toughest variable is the "luck" factor. (Put in all of the variables and without the luck factor there, sorry amigo, no success. Ozzy Osbourne is a great example too if you want to pick a male artist. There are probably 100's of male singers I could point out! Ozzy knows that there are tons of people that can sing better than him, and he is truly lucky and "blessed." True Ozzy probably wouldn't dream of attempting to sing a Christina Aguilera song, but Black Sabbath "Paranoid" will be in my CD player any day. C. Aguilera in my player? ::cough::gag!::
                But then also... what's your definition of success?
                I would be happy being as successful as Motorhead. Maybe even more happy at that level rather than Michael Jackson. Well Michael Jackson isn't successful anymore of course. Only successful in being in the top 10 list: World's Greatest Freaks of Nature!
                Ok, once again I've gone beyond making-the-point! Perhaps now is a good time to stop. :roll: Oh before I go...
                what makes me qualified to say anything about the music industry? Well I've written articles for small, local publications over the years. I have done my own "rags" over the years. I worked in college radio for 4 years. I am a musician also. And I read and pay attention to shit in general. ;)

                --Jer
                \"Bush\'s army of barmy bigots is the worst thing that\'s happened to the US in some years...\"
                Michael Moorcock - 3am Magazine Interview

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by AriochRIP
                  Doc:

                  I'm a musician, so you're preaching to the choir with me. A friend of mine is in a band that scored a Number 1 single on their debut album (I have no idea how many total units they moved, but I'd think it was substantial given a number one single) and their label "rewarded" them by refusing to release their second record. Why? Because the label just didn't see "another number 1 hit" in the new material they'd submitted. So, they lost their deal.

                  Incredible. As you said, whatever happened to "developing" an artist? Don't you think these guys earned a shot at a second record after hitting a homerun on their first? The whole system is a mess. A cutthroat mess at that.

                  Nick.
                  Interesting. Well sounds like your friend's band signed to a "corporate label." Perhaps this shows why it's smarter to start off on an Indie label first.
                  I believe most successful bands do it that way. I guess that it allows a band to avoid getting a "blacksheep" stigma attached to them-- ie. "This band can't sell albums. They were on <insert record company name here> and they got dropped." Not to mention you have creative freedom on Indie labels-- people who actually like music, that may well not have guys at the top who went to business school and aren't true music fans.
                  Soundgarden is a good example. There's an article on them in the Alternative Music thread in the Forum. They avoided signing to a major label for a long time. Probably because of the reasons I just mentioned. I think it takes a degree of intelligence, if not business savvy in order to become a successful artist-- or rather, a successful artist with a degree of longevity. Nowadays 3 years is longevity! Indie labels are responsible for bringing out the best new music anyway.
                  All that I just wrote is my opinion and my speculation. There is no scientific formula for success in entertainment in my opinion. If there is, it is:
                  talent + creativity + new ideas + intelligence + business savvy + hard work + obsession + luck. Maybe I missed one or two variables. (charisma? looks?)
                  There are probably a million people who can sing better then Britney Spears and Sheryl Crow, but does that mean they put out an album that sells?
                  The toughest variable is the "luck" factor. (Put in all of the variables and without the luck factor there, sorry amigo, no success. Ozzy Osbourne is a great example too if you want to pick a male artist. There are probably 100's of male singers I could point out! Ozzy knows that there are tons of people that can sing better than him, and he is truly lucky and "blessed." True Ozzy probably wouldn't dream of attempting to sing a Christina Aguilera song, but Black Sabbath "Paranoid" will be in my CD player any day. C. Aguilera in my player? ::cough::gag!::
                  But then also... what's your definition of success?
                  I would be happy being as successful as Motorhead. Maybe even more happy at that level rather than Michael Jackson. Well Michael Jackson isn't successful anymore of course. Only successful in being in the top 10 list: World's Greatest Freaks of Nature!
                  Ok, once again I've gone beyond making-the-point! Perhaps now is a good time to stop. :roll: Oh before I go...
                  what makes me qualified to say anything about the music industry? Well I've written articles for small, local publications over the years. I have done my own "rags" over the years. I worked in college radio for 4 years. I am a musician also. And I read and pay attention to shit in general. ;)

                  --Jer
                  \"Bush\'s army of barmy bigots is the worst thing that\'s happened to the US in some years...\"
                  Michael Moorcock - 3am Magazine Interview

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by AriochRIP
                    Doc:

                    I'm a musician, so you're preaching to the choir with me. A friend of mine is in a band that scored a Number 1 single on their debut album (I have no idea how many total units they moved, but I'd think it was substantial given a number one single) and their label "rewarded" them by refusing to release their second record. Why? Because the label just didn't see "another number 1 hit" in the new material they'd submitted. So, they lost their deal.

                    Incredible. As you said, whatever happened to "developing" an artist? Don't you think these guys earned a shot at a second record after hitting a homerun on their first? The whole system is a mess. A cutthroat mess at that.

                    Nick.
                    Interesting. Well sounds like your friend's band signed to a "corporate label." Perhaps this shows why it's smarter to start off on an Indie label first.
                    I believe most successful bands do it that way. I guess that it allows a band to avoid getting a "blacksheep" stigma attached to them-- ie. "This band can't sell albums. They were on <insert record company name here> and they got dropped." Not to mention you have creative freedom on Indie labels-- people who actually like music, that may well not have guys at the top who went to business school and aren't true music fans.
                    Soundgarden is a good example. There's an article on them in the Alternative Music thread in the Forum. They avoided signing to a major label for a long time. Probably because of the reasons I just mentioned. I think it takes a degree of intelligence, if not business savvy in order to become a successful artist-- or rather, a successful artist with a degree of longevity. Nowadays 3 years is longevity! Indie labels are responsible for bringing out the best new music anyway.
                    All that I just wrote is my opinion and my speculation. There is no scientific formula for success in entertainment in my opinion. If there is, it is:
                    talent + creativity + new ideas + intelligence + business savvy + hard work + obsession + luck. Maybe I missed one or two variables. (charisma? looks?)
                    There are probably a million people who can sing better then Britney Spears and Sheryl Crow, but does that mean they put out an album that sells?
                    The toughest variable is the "luck" factor. (Put in all of the variables and without the luck factor there, sorry amigo, no success. Ozzy Osbourne is a great example too if you want to pick a male artist. There are probably 100's of male singers I could point out! Ozzy knows that there are tons of people that can sing better than him, and he is truly lucky and "blessed." True Ozzy probably wouldn't dream of attempting to sing a Christina Aguilera song, but Black Sabbath "Paranoid" will be in my CD player any day. C. Aguilera in my player? ::cough::gag!::
                    But then also... what's your definition of success?
                    I would be happy being as successful as Motorhead. Maybe even more happy at that level rather than Michael Jackson. Well Michael Jackson isn't successful anymore of course. Only successful in being in the top 10 list: World's Greatest Freaks of Nature!
                    Ok, once again I've gone beyond making-the-point! Perhaps now is a good time to stop. :roll: Oh before I go...
                    what makes me qualified to say anything about the music industry? Well I've written articles for small, local publications over the years. I have done my own "rags" over the years. I worked in college radio for 4 years. I am a musician also. And I read and pay attention to shit in general. ;)

                    --Jer
                    \"Bush\'s army of barmy bigots is the worst thing that\'s happened to the US in some years...\"
                    Michael Moorcock - 3am Magazine Interview

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by AriochRIP
                      Doc:

                      I'm a musician, so you're preaching to the choir with me. A friend of mine is in a band that scored a Number 1 single on their debut album (I have no idea how many total units they moved, but I'd think it was substantial given a number one single) and their label "rewarded" them by refusing to release their second record. Why? Because the label just didn't see "another number 1 hit" in the new material they'd submitted. So, they lost their deal.

                      Incredible. As you said, whatever happened to "developing" an artist? Don't you think these guys earned a shot at a second record after hitting a homerun on their first? The whole system is a mess. A cutthroat mess at that.

                      Nick.
                      Interesting. Well sounds like your friend's band signed to a "corporate label." Perhaps this shows why it's smarter to start off on an Indie label first.
                      I believe most successful bands do it that way. I guess that it allows: 1) a band to develop a significant fan base, 2) allows a band to avoid getting a "blacksheep" stigma attached to them-- ie. "This band can't sell albums. They were on <insert record company name here> and they got dropped." 3) You have creative freedom on Indie labels-- run by people who actually like music, that may well not have guys at the top who went to business school and may not be "true" music fans.
                      Soundgarden is a good example. There's an article on them in the Alternative Music thread in the Forum. They avoided signing to a major label for a long time. Probably because of the reasons I just mentioned. I think it takes a degree of intelligence, if not business savvy in order to become a successful artist-- or rather, a successful artist with a degree of longevity. Nowadays 3 years is longevity! ::ironic laughter :lol: :: Indie labels are responsible for bringing out the best new music anyway.
                      All that I just wrote is my opinion and my speculation. There is no scientific formula for success in entertainment in my opinion. If there is, it is:
                      talent + creativity + new ideas + intelligence + business savvy + hard work + obsession + luck. Maybe I missed one or two variables. (charisma? looks?)
                      There are probably a million people who can sing better then Britney Spears and Sheryl Crow, but does that mean they can put out an album that sells?
                      Hey didn't that "William Hung" (whatever his name is), American Idol reject, sell a million albums? ::even more ironic laughter!::

                      The toughest variable is the "luck" factor. (Put in all of the variables and without the luck factor there, sorry amigo, no success.) Ozzy Osbourne is a great example too if you want to pick a male artist. There are probably 100's of male singers I could point out! Ozzy knows that there are tons of people that can sing better than him, and so acknowledges that he is truly lucky and "blessed." True Ozzy probably wouldn't dream of attempting to sing a Christina Aguilera song, but Black Sabbath "Paranoid" will be in my CD player any day. C. Aguilera in my player? ::cough::gag!:: Michael M. would agree. From what I've heard from him, people who are narcissistic enough to believe that they have "God-given talent" and are "blessed" in that way are full of shite!
                      But then also... what's your definition of success?
                      I would be happy being as successful as Lemmy and Motorhead. Maybe even more happy at that level rather than that of Michael Jackson. Well Michael Jackson isn't successful anymore of course. Only successful in being in the top 10 list: World's Greatest Freaks of Nature!
                      The biggest problem I see with musicians is that even if they are good at their craft, they ought to learn more about everything than just playing their instrument and getting some ass, and getting drunk, and being beligerent narcissist assholes. Musicians who are not like this, are one's I tend to like better. I would guess that it would help more than hurt to put time into
                      learning about the business aspects of the music industry, how to record music, how to promote yourself, etc.....
                      Ok, once again I've gone beyond making-the-point! Perhaps now is a good time to stop. :roll: Oh before I go...
                      what makes me qualified to say anything about the music industry? Well I've written articles for small, local publications over the years. I have done my own "rags" over the years. I worked in college radio for 4 years. I am a musician also. And I read and pay attention to shit in general. ;)
                      Maybe I need to write a book... but do I have the credibility until I become a rich-as-fuck entertainer? I dunno...
                      Cheers!
                      --Jer
                      \"Bush\'s army of barmy bigots is the worst thing that\'s happened to the US in some years...\"
                      Michael Moorcock - 3am Magazine Interview

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Jer-
                        Are you posting multiple times so you can catch up with VonWeiner?

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          appearantly, the edit feature isn't working properly.
                          the last post should be the one to be read.

                          If the delete feature comes back, I'll delete all the previous posts!
                          :roll:

                          That said, can Berry or one of the illustrious Chaos Engineers please
                          delete the previous "unfinished" posts of mine?

                          sorry about that everyone, I tend to edit my posts 2 - 9 times.
                          It's probably my Mac that's to blame for the redundancy-- for the tautological errors.

                          No one, not even the great MM, can beat Von Weiner!
                          Luckily he's a great guy eh? What if he were an annoying hot bag of wind (like me)? :lol:
                          \"Bush\'s army of barmy bigots is the worst thing that\'s happened to the US in some years...\"
                          Michael Moorcock - 3am Magazine Interview

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Doc
                            Jer-
                            Are you posting multiple times so you can catch up with VonWeiner?
                            Hehe, he can email me for that. Although, as Jerico knows me now, I can be slow to respond. Its all these kids running around me, they distract me so much. :oops:
                            When they had advanced together to meet on common
                            ground, then there was the clash of shields, of spears
                            and the fury of men cased in bronze; bossed shields met
                            each other and the din rose loud. Then there were
                            mingled the groaning and the crowing of men killed and
                            killing, and the ground ran with blood.

                            Homer, The Illiad

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              "...it must be closer to a mere $1 USD to produce the physical media of a CD (CD, Booklet, Jewel Case)... CDs probably wholesale at around $4-5 USD."

                              No expert, but I think your numbers are very close to reality for the average release. Obviously, for a band like Aerosmith or U2, who is being paid a crapload of money up front, it will require more sales to break even.

                              "Now I'm no expert, but I bet with minimal investment but with extra other efforts one could do quite well self-publishing music (or really anything for that matter), and then advertise it online. "

                              I think you are right on, the problem is that record companies will often provide advertising or provide up front money, which is an enticing proposition (even if in the long run it nets to zero or negative for the artist).

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Doc
                                Jer-
                                Are you posting multiple times so you can catch up with VonWeiner?
                                Oh I get it, "catch up" with me as in number of posts. I'm, ah, a doofus. Sorry. :lol:

                                DOH
                                When they had advanced together to meet on common
                                ground, then there was the clash of shields, of spears
                                and the fury of men cased in bronze; bossed shields met
                                each other and the din rose loud. Then there were
                                mingled the groaning and the crowing of men killed and
                                killing, and the ground ran with blood.

                                Homer, The Illiad

                                Comment

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