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Eternal Tragedy

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  • Eternal Tragedy

    Hi! The recent request for advice on 'Corum or Cornelius' by runequester has been fun to follow, but it's prompted a question, that I thought deserved a separate thread of thought. Which Eternal Champion incarnation is the most tragic? It struck me that none of MMs hero-types get an easy ride, they all have guilt trips for one thing or another. It was VGs list of favourite ECs that sparked my thought:
    Corum
    Elric
    Erekose
    Hawkmoon
    (I think that was VGs order of preference, for this post I will not commit my personal opinions on this!)
    Should Jerry Cornelius be included in the list? Advice required here, please.
    Also Jherek Carnelian? Karl Glogaur? et al? Should it be a full list, or 'the four who are one'
    What do you all think?
    Forgive me if this subject has already been raised in earlier threads. Has it already been polled? Do I get a finger smacking for not checking back through older threads?
    48
    Jephraim Tallow
    6.25%
    3
    Elric
    22.92%
    11
    Asquiol of Pompeii
    2.08%
    1
    John Daker - Erekose/Ulrik Skarsol/etc.
    20.83%
    10
    Michael Kane
    0.00%
    0
    Dorian Hawkmoon
    0.00%
    0
    Jerry Cornelius
    0.00%
    0
    Karl Glogauer
    14.58%
    7
    Jerry Cornell
    0.00%
    0
    Konrad Arflane
    2.08%
    1
    Corum Jhaelen Irsei
    27.08%
    13
    Oswald Bastable
    2.08%
    1
    Jherek Carnelian
    0.00%
    0
    Una Persson
    0.00%
    0
    Ulrich von Bek/Manfred von Bek/etc.
    2.08%
    1
    Jack Karaquazian
    0.00%
    0
    The Rose
    0.00%
    0
    Sir Seaton Begg
    0.00%
    0
    Other - please specify
    0.00%
    0
    He's well smoked

  • #2
    Surely Erekose is the most tragic? Not only does he get to do the guilt-filled slaughter type stuff and have the usual relationship problems, but he remembers doing it as all the other incarnations.

    Comment


    • #3
      Yes, Yes, Yes...The master of genocide...EREKOSE!
      I thought the same before I got half way through Kipper's post.
      You can list as many manifestations of the EC as you so desire Kipper.

      Comment


      • #4
        Aha! A pertinent observation! But would his knowledge of previous incarnations help him to deal with his present? He could use it as a coping mechanism - 'what I do is pre-ordained, therefore not my fault'. That would diminish the grief/guilt he might feel.
        Of course, the human race did deserve a good slaughtering, for what they did to the Eldren! Another excuse Erekose could use if he was ever to be accused of Racial Cleansing!! And he got the girl as well...
        Sadly, as Urlik, he could remember having loved Ermizhad. That must have been a 'downer', - for Urlik, who had been Erekose, who had been John Daker, who had been ....
        I think we'll have to take each incarnation as a separate entity, for the purposes of the thread question. After all, all of the ECs are just representations of the same entity, who's fate it is to save or doom Humanity throughout the Multiverse. Read that way, there is no question to answer. I realise that your observation was made with Erekose as the individual, Johneffay, so please forgive me if I've stated the obvious and for using your response to bring out the above point!
        Drat! VG got one in as I was composing my response, you're very good at that VG!
        He's well smoked

        Comment


        • #5
          Poll added - for those who want to play the game.
          _"For an eternity Allard was alone in an icy limbo where all the colours were bright and sharp and comfortless.
          _For another eternity Allard swam through seas without end, all green and cool and deep, where distorted creatures drifted, sometimes attacking him.
          _And then, at last, he had reached the real world – the world he had created, where he was God and could create or destroy whatever he wished.
          _He was supremely powerful. He told planets to destroy themselves, and they did. He created suns. Beautiful women flocked to be his. Of all men, he was the mightiest. Of all gods, he was the greatest."

          Comment


          • #6
            If I'm quick, I'll be sixth to get my vote in! Hey, thanks David! Hope all enjoy playing and watching the results change. We'll all have individual EC favourites, i'm hoping, and the final scores may be close.
            He's well smoked

            Comment


            • #7
              For me, Erekose is not the most tragic : at the end he found Ermizhad and escaped the wheel of time ..... even as a statue ... .

              Dorian found love and happyness .....

              Elric found friends, a goal .... and died after having havenged himself from chaos ....

              Ulrich and found sucess and peace.


              Oswald found a cause

              etc .....

              Corum is the exception, betrayed in the end by the woman he loved ... deprived of peace ....

              Comment


              • #8
                Jerry Cornell - Eternal Champion! Are we sure about this?

                (Actually I have some reservations about the New Messiah for the Age of Science being an incarnation of the EC as well, but we'll let that pass)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by johneffay
                  Jerry Cornell - Eternal Champion! Are we sure about this?
                  Nope - just as I'm not sure about Jephraim Tallow, Oswald Bastable, Ulrich von Bek/Manfred von Bek, or Sir Seaton Begg. I only put Una & The Rose in because I have some dim recollection of Mike saying they were female incarnations.

                  I also toyed with including: Clovis Marca, Alan Powys and/or The Fireclown, Ryan (from TBC), Dr Faustaff (from Wrecks/Rituals), Lee Seward, Newman the Astronaut, Renark the Wanderer and Simon of Byzantium, but a) was limited to 20 choices, b) wasn't sure whether they're all equitable to being incarnations of the EC and c) since they only appear in one-off novels or short stories figured I had to draw the line somewhere.

                  Originally posted by johneffay
                  (Actually I have some reservations about the New Messiah for the Age of Science being an incarnation of the EC as well, but we'll let that pass)
                  Please feel free to argue the toss on any of the suggestions either above or in the poll itself. I will attempt to edit the poll where possible.

                  I agree there's a question mark over Jerry being the EC a) if Una fulfils that role and b) since Jhary-a-Conal and Jermays the Crooked are identifed as incarnations of the Eternal Companion.

                  Answers on a postcard please.
                  _"For an eternity Allard was alone in an icy limbo where all the colours were bright and sharp and comfortless.
                  _For another eternity Allard swam through seas without end, all green and cool and deep, where distorted creatures drifted, sometimes attacking him.
                  _And then, at last, he had reached the real world – the world he had created, where he was God and could create or destroy whatever he wished.
                  _He was supremely powerful. He told planets to destroy themselves, and they did. He created suns. Beautiful women flocked to be his. Of all men, he was the mightiest. Of all gods, he was the greatest."

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I seem to remember that Una is the female incarnation of the E.C. . ..... not at all tragic !

                    Another female incarnation is Ilian of Garathorm who lived a tragedy but recovers..... and lives at the end of the only book she appears in .

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Well, so far the general concensus seems to be leaning towards Erekose/Urlik/John Daker, with Corum second. But only ten votes? We need more opinions before this can be classed as 'closed'!
                      C'mon guys and gals, cast your votes!
                      He's well smoked

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Of course, as has been observed above, all of the incarnations of the EC, for the most part, live through many tragedies. Part and parcel of the struggle between Law and Chaos and the overarching equalizer of the Cosmic Balance.

                        I voted Corum, as he saw his own race eliminated not just once, and the loneliness of his foray into the world of the Fhoi Myore, and his murder by the woman he had fallen for, just tears my heart out.

                        Elric, Erokese/Daker, Hawkmoon, all led tragic lives in their stories, and I think that qualifying any aspect of the Eternal Champion as "more tragic" becomes an academic exercise, for all ovbously felt and lived with tragedies that would make most of us fold (I would make quite a poor incarnation of the Cosimc Champion, probably needing to change into my spare suit of armor several times a day).
                        "My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night;
                        But ah my foes and oh, my friends, it gives a lovely light" - Edna St Vincent Millay

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          The answer depends on how you define tragic.

                          I chose Karl G. because he is, to me, following the most fatalistic path (especially in Behold the Man). Even though he does this by choice, few things are more tragic than following someone else's path.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            [QUOTE=Perssonicus]I voted Corum, as he saw his own race eliminated not just once, and the loneliness of his foray into the world of the Fhoi Myore, and his murder by the woman he had fallen for, just tears my heart out.
                            [QUOTE]

                            Yay Perssonicus! Not to mention the loss of the hand and the eye! And there's the angst he suffers from using the power of the eye as well!

                            And, who else has had to see off 3 (count 'em !) chaos gods in one trilogy? Corum has some of the nastiest enemies MM has come up with imo, in the second trilogy. Gaynor, the Fhoi Myore (), Goolegh, People of the Pines, his own clone......

                            It's neck and neck for the Prince in the Scarlet Robe and the Hero with the multiple memories!
                            He's well smoked

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Not any more! I just put Corum ahead by one vote!

                              Actually, this discussion has gotten me all fired up, so I'm going to have to reread the Corum novels soon!
                              Amid Chaos, Order arises; but even in Order there is Chaos.

                              Understands now that Corum did have a happy ending after all!

                              Comment

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