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Corum books and the name "Mabden"

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  • Nephesh Phantasos
    Moonbeam Traveller
    • Nov 2020
    • 7

    Corum books and the name "Mabden"

    Hello there, I'm reading the 2nd Corum books and since the first one i stiil ask myself if Mabden isn't just anagram for Bad Men. Moorcock is famous for his use of anagrams.
  • postodave
    Citizen of Tanelorn
    • Jul 2011
    • 228

    #2
    Originally posted by Nephesh Phantasos View Post
    Hello there, I'm reading the 2nd Corum books and since the first one i stiil ask myself if Mabden isn't just anagram for Bad Men. Moorcock is famous for his use of anagrams.
    I'd never thought of that before. So, I guessed it was either that or a Cornish word, since Corum was written after Mike read a Cornish dictionary. Googles mabden Cornish and it turns out it's Cornish for mankind.

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    • Nephesh Phantasos
      Moonbeam Traveller
      • Nov 2020
      • 7

      #3
      Originally posted by postodave View Post

      I'd never thought of that before. So, I guessed it was either that or a Cornish word, since Corum was written after Mike read a Cornish dictionary. Googles mabden Cornish and it turns out it's Cornish for mankind.
      Ah well, didn't know that. You are right. Do you have some articles or the such regarding Corum and Cornish influence? thanks for the reply

      edit: I'm reading Corum's wikipedia page and it's stated that there's a quite deep connection with Celtic mythos (in this case Cornish).
      Last edited by Nephesh Phantasos; 03-12-2021, 01:15 PM. Reason: additional info

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      • postodave
        Citizen of Tanelorn
        • Jul 2011
        • 228

        #4
        Originally posted by Nephesh Phantasos View Post

        Ah well, didn't know that. You are right. Do you have some articles or the such regarding Corum and Cornish influence? thanks for the reply

        edit: I'm reading Corum's wikipedia page and it's stated that there's a quite deep connection with Celtic mythos (in this case Cornish).
        I think I might have read it in the intro to the first Corum omnibus published in the nineties. Mike mentions it here https://www.multiverse.org/forum/q-a...rns#post210973

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        • Nephesh Phantasos
          Moonbeam Traveller
          • Nov 2020
          • 7

          #5
          Originally posted by postodave View Post

          I think I might have read it in the intro to the first Corum omnibus published in the nineties. Mike mentions it here https://www.multiverse.org/forum/q-a...rns#post210973
          thanks pal, i admit my google search game was weak ahah
          Last edited by Nephesh Phantasos; 03-15-2021, 03:29 AM.

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          • Heresiologist
            Mothra Worshipper
            • Jan 2012
            • 982

            #6
            Well, the mabden were badmen. So, I thank you both for illuminating two facets to the story previously obscured because mabden just sounded appropriately celtic and mood setting.

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            • Nephesh Phantasos
              Moonbeam Traveller
              • Nov 2020
              • 7

              #7
              Originally posted by Heresiologist View Post
              Well, the mabden were badmen. So, I thank yoru both for illuminating two facets to the story previously obscured because mabden just sounded appropriately celtic and mood setting.
              incidentally i'm reading in tandem corum and the revenge of the rose and in the latter it is said by
              , talking about coincidences

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              • postodave
                Citizen of Tanelorn
                • Jul 2011
                • 228

                #8
                If your reading The Revenge of the Rose this gives me a second chance to share my Esbern Snare Discovery: https://www.multiverse.org/forum/the...7-esbern-snare

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                • Nephesh Phantasos
                  Moonbeam Traveller
                  • Nov 2020
                  • 7

                  #9
                  Originally posted by postodave View Post
                  If your reading The Revenge of the Rose this gives me a second chance to share my Esbern Snare Discovery: https://www.multiverse.org/forum/the...7-esbern-snare
                  I didn't read any End of TIme books but what i knew is that Wheldrake, at least the name, is derived from an alias of writer Swinburne

                  http://wiki.multiverse.org/index.php...nest_Wheldrake. What's stated in the aformentioned acknowledgement?

                  Comment

                  • postodave
                    Citizen of Tanelorn
                    • Jul 2011
                    • 228

                    #10
                    It says "Apart from Alfred Austin's, all verses quoted in the text are the work of Ernest Wheldrake. The majority are from Posthumous Poems, published in 1881 and never reprinted."
                    Austin is a real poet, Wheldrake as you note was Moorcock's parody of Swinburne. Some of the verses attributed to Wheldrake are Moorcock's own creations, some, at least one, are the work of other writers. The titles of the trilogy is taken from a poem by Wheldrake, i.e. written by Moorock, while the titles of the individual volumes are from existing writers. Moorcock plays a similar trick in The Condition of Muzak where he includes quotes from Enid Welsford's The Fool but changes the text to include references to Cornelius.

                    Whittier's ballad is worth a read. here .

                    Comment

                    • EdCh
                      Terhali's Particular Satisfaction
                      • May 2021
                      • 19

                      #11
                      I wrote a good deal in my MM blog last year about the origins of certain names in the Corum novels. It was a fun project, trying to sift through various web resources to make guesses on "hidden meanings" and whatnot. Also, a bit of OCD never hurt...

                      For the Swords Trilogy, see here: https://ariochspad.blogspot.com/2020...s-trilogy.html

                      For the Chronicles Trilogy I wrote some things here: https://ariochspad.blogspot.com/2020...th-silver.html

                      Regarding the subject at hand I wrote something like this in the Swords article:

                      Thee Olde Tongue
                      "Returning back to the original genesis of Corum's sequence, Moorcock frequently uses variations of the Cornish language (as well as Welsh) to generate exotic-sounding names for the Mabden landmarks of Corum's world. In fact, "mab" translates to "youth", making the rise of the Mabden race parallel the rise of the Young Kingdoms in Elric's world (the title of the famous Welsh manuscript, the Mabinogion, translates to "account of youthful adventures"). Within the narrative itself, Corum even translates some names from the Mabden language to Vadhagh and then to English. For example, King Lyr-a-Brode translates to "King of All the Land", and the island Svi-an-Fanla-Brool translates to "Home of the Gorged God". It's beyond the scope of this post to get too deep into the etymology of the many names found in the Swords Trilogy, but its worth mentioning that the name of Corum's race, the Vadhagh, has some similarity to the name for Daghda, an Irish deity known for hidden knowledge and "four-angled" compositions for harp (Corum later becomes haunted by a harp). However, the Swords Trilogy is really more about the Mabden - Corum's Irish roots would be explored in a second trilogy."

                      I added more in a my Chronicles post which I quote here:

                      "...As mentioned earlier, some of the characters and creatures in the Chronicles were apparently inspired by figures from Celtic mythology. Below are a few which have been identified (through Wikipedia, Wikiverse (multiverse.org), and luck...)."
                      • Tuha-na-Cremm Croich ("the people of Corum's Cloak/Mound"): Crom Cruach - "crooked mound", a pagan god worshiped through human sacrifice.
                      • Corum Llew Ereint ("Corum of the Silver Hand"): Lludd Llaw Eraint - "Lludd of the Silver Hand", Welsh king who saved Britain from three plagues.
                      • Fhoi Myore ("undeRsea ones", re-dubbed here as the "Cold Folk"): Fomóiri - "the undersea ones", destructive beings of nature who opposed the first Irish settlers and are rivals of the more "constructive" Tuatha Dé Danann.
                      • Medhbh: Medb - warrior queen of Connacht in the mythological Irish Ulster Cycle (possibly inspiration for "Queen Mab").
                      • Goffanon: Goffanon - a blacksmith god in Celtic mythology and Middle Welsh literature.
                      • Sidhe: Aes sídhe/Aos sí ("people of the mounds") - comparable to "elves or fairies" in Irish/Scottish mythology, possibly from another plane.
                      • Hounds of Kerenos: Cŵn Annwn ("coon anun") - the spectral hounds of Annwn, the otherworld of Welsh myth (dubbed "Dogs of Hell" by Christians).
                      • Amergin: Amergin Glúingel - in Irish myth, a bard, druid, judge and king who helped conquer Ireland for mankind by commanding natural forces.
                      • Dagdagh: An Dagda - "the good god", a druid king (one of the Tuatha Dé Danann) associated with growth, plays harp, somewhat similar to Odin of Norse mythology.
                      • Balahr the One-eyed: Balor of the Fomorians, personifies drought, blight, and the scorching sun.
                      • Bress: Bres of the Fomorians - as their king, he betrayed the Tuatha Dé Danann (his mother's side).
                      • Kerenos: Cernunnos - “horned one”, the Gaelic god of beasts and wild places (related somewhat to "unicorn", see Martínez Roca covers above).
                      • Hy-Breasail: Uí Breasail - a mysterious lost island covered in mist.
                      • Ynys Scaith: Isle of Skye(?) - island in the Inner Hebrides of Scotland, recently featured in the Star Wars movies as the home of the Jedi (opponents of the Sith - i.e. "Sidhe"!).
                      • Laegaire: Lóegaire - possibly Lóegaire Búadach, hapless would-be hero of the Ulster Cycle.
                      • Craig Don: Don Craig - a fictional character on Days of Our Lives. Don came to Salem as a successful and wealthy attorney. After fourteen years he went to the mail to post a letter and hasn't been seen since. (haha, joke).
                      From my understanding, these names were inspired by certain "indigenous" books available during MM's vacations, during which time he did some writing...

                      Anyways, check out the links cited above for more of my self-indulgent babbling where I attempt to sound literary!

                      Comment

                      • Pietro_Mercurios
                        Eternal Champion
                        • Oct 2004
                        • 5747

                        #12
                        That glossary could come in handy, as I've just received, The Chronicles of Corum Vol. 1: The Knight of Swords, in the post and it's a while since I read the novels.

                        Corum_KoS_00.jpg



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