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The Olympics Thread

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  • #31
    Thanks, PWV.
    And I see you're a Brother Capricorn, too!
    Google ergo sum

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by LEtranger
      And I see you're a Brother Capricorn, too!
      Ah yes, coming to find out that's a bit of a curse. Not only is my birthday slammed right up against Christmas, I get to be headstrong to a fault. Yipee!
      "Wounds are all I'm made of. Did I hear you say that this is victory?"
      --Michael Moorcock, Veteran of the Psychic Wars

      Comment


      • #33
        And the very country hat caused this nasty event we were discussing never ceases to surprise the world:
        http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/3593532.stm

        It just isn't all "one colour", obviously, which is why I wouldn't ban the country.
        Cheers fellow Capricorn, and all orthers of course!
        Google ergo sum

        Comment


        • #34
          What a cool story, thanks!

          I had no idea that the word "Bismillah" in Bohemian Rhapsody was "God" in Arabic. Wow.

          But I must take issue here with one small detail in the article. Freddie Mercury was bisexual, not gay. His strongest love was for Mary Austin, to whom he left most of his estate. It's a small triviality, but one I felt needed mentioning.
          "Wounds are all I'm made of. Did I hear you say that this is victory?"
          --Michael Moorcock, Veteran of the Psychic Wars

          Comment


          • #35
            I had a friend who won a Bronze in TKD at the Seol Olympics.... made me feel better about being beat by a girl :)

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Kitsune
              I had a friend who won a Bronze in TKD at the Seol Olympics.... made me feel better about being beat by a girl :)
              Obviously, I'm way behind on reading this forum. :-]

              This comment struck me as funny and sort of illustrative
              of a mindset I often encounter during teaching TKD, although
              I'm sure Kitsune didn't intend it the way I read it initially. All
              of us here in this forum are paragons of virtue and high-mindedness,
              right? :)

              I have been known to tell people that I'd rather teach
              women and teenagers than grown men. The reason?

              Ego.

              Women and teenagers usually come into the class with a
              desire to listen and learn what they can. Sometimes, they
              have a problem with assertiveness, but that can be worked
              on.

              A statistically significant percentage of grown men cause
              problems during the first year or so of instruction, because
              they tend to identify skill in TKD with some sort of display
              of manly prowess, personal dignity, or gravitas.

              The result of this approach is that they tend to be far too
              wild and aggressive during *controlled* free sparring. My
              own teacher has commented on what he terms the "law
              of the jungle" rules that seem to apply here. We discussed
              it several times, and he opined that the conflict-situation
              of free sparring triggered the "fight-or-flight" reaction
              buried in us all. Men aren't accustomed to running away
              in such situations, and they *fight* instead of spar.

              TKD sparring isn't a barroom brawl. There are rules.
              You can't kick the back or below the hogu (a
              kind of body armor to protect the chest and ribs);
              you can't punch the head, although the body is okay.
              You can kick the head as long as you avoid the face.
              You can't grab and hold -- it's TKD, not Hapkido.

              A lot of grown men, when put into a TKD sparring
              situation for the first year, kick the legs, the groin,
              the back with wild abandon. If you aren't expecting
              this (because you know it's against the rules), it's
              very dangerous! So when we have some of these
              "wild bulls" in the class, I make sure they're paired
              with people who are experienced enough to control
              them.

              Here's the tie-in to Kitsune's comment about getting
              beaten by girls. My daughter is one of my students.
              She's almost 15, and she's getting close to earning
              her black belt. Like her mom and dad, she's taller than
              average (~5'9" by American measurement). Because
              she knows what she's doing, when I recently had one
              of these "wild bulls" in class, I paired him up with her for
              some of the free sparring. The guy was about
              35, a similar height, but around 15 kilos heavier
              than my daughter. So I warned her about what
              she should watch for; I had just sparred the guy
              and was able to give her a scouting report. In
              final summary, I told her, "Keep him out of range,
              run him around, and don't let him sweep your legs.
              And when he charges, stop him and tattoo him.
              Please don't knock him out."

              She interpreted my instructions most accurately.
              She's a smart kid. She tapped him on the side of
              the head with a spinning hook kick and a bacat
              chagi (in-to-out crescent kick) a few times, but
              it was the spinning back kick to the body that
              got his attention.

              TKD is a skill that must be learned, as is the case
              with many other martial arts. I tell people who get
              discouraged during sparring that if they came in
              and could do everything from the start, we'd just
              hand them a black belt and let them open their own
              school. :-]

              Her opponent was very unhappy with himself.
              He disappeared for a coupled of weeks, then
              returned with a new attitude. His control had
              improved remarkably in that time. Control
              is only partially a physical phenomenon.

              I wish teaching these guys was always that easy. :-[

              ---

              I hope some people got a chance to watch the TKD from
              Athens. The matches were pretty good. The Korean
              heavyweight who won the gold medal did it in convincing
              fashion with a spinning hook kick to the head of his taller
              opponent. I was impressed. Pascal Gentil, who got the
              bronze, lost a very close match to the Korean heavyweight
              (on points, 3-2, as I recall); however, unlike the silver
              medalist, he didn't get knocked unconscious. :-]

              Steven Lopez of the U.S. won the gold in the under
              80 kg classification, and the gold medal round was
              textbook. Note that he didn't get points for the
              spinning back kick he landed -- he got points for
              knocking his opponent out of the ring. For some
              reason, TKD judging over the years has increasingly
              discounted scoring "straight" kicks. I think this has
              been a bad trend, although it had no real effect on
              the match outcome.

              LSN

              Comment


              • #37
                I was just being funny. I'm more upset about being beaten by the guy who blocks my punches into his face (so I get points counted against me) than I was about being beaten by a woman. The person you really have to compete with most in any sport is you... I always did best when I stopped worring about how much better I was doing in comparision to some of the other students and started concentrating on how much better I was doing in comparison to myself.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by LSN
                  TKD judging over the years has increasingly
                  discounted scoring "straight" kicks. I think this has
                  been a bad trend...
                  I agree. A solid kick to the chest should score, regardless of what type of kick it is. Sometimes, a straight out back kick or side kick is the best weapon.

                  Originally posted by LSN
                  bacat chagi
                  It's cool to know TKD instructors in California also teach the Korean terminology. Master Park insisted we know them: ap chagi, ap dolio chagi, dwit gup yi, and on and on...

                  Had to count our stretches in Korean, too. Hana, durl, set, net...

                  Originally posted by LSN
                  A lot of grown men, when put into a TKD sparring situation for the first year, kick the legs, the groin, the back with wild abandon. If you aren't expecting this (because you know it's against the rules), it's very dangerous!
                  I train now in a form of Kung Fu known as Wun Hop Kuen Do which is about as far away from TKD as one can get. There is A LOT of sweeping, elbowing, kneeing; it's brutal. Sparring takes on a whole new meaning once the pads are gone and the rules allow for shots to the kidney! I'm 37 and I often times feel like I'm getting too old for this stuff. :lol: Ever feel that way, LSN?
                  "Wounds are all I'm made of. Did I hear you say that this is victory?"
                  --Michael Moorcock, Veteran of the Psychic Wars

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by PsychicWarVeteran
                    Originally posted by LSN
                    TKD judging over the years has increasingly
                    discounted scoring "straight" kicks. I think this has
                    been a bad trend...
                    I agree. A solid kick to the chest should score, regardless of what type of kick it is. Sometimes, a straight out back kick or side kick is the best weapon.
                    They're faster than circular kicks; they generate a lot of power.
                    I've scored a lot of knock-downs and knock-outs with back kick
                    and side kick. (Dit chagi and yeop chagi; Korean-to-Latin transcriptions
                    don't often agree. :-])


                    Originally posted by LSN
                    bacat chagi
                    It's cool to know TKD instructors in California also teach the Korean terminology. Master Park insisted we know them: ap chagi, ap dolio chagi, dwit gup yi, and on and on...

                    Had to count our stretches in Korean, too. Hana, durl, set, net...
                    It's pretty commonly done that way in the U.S. I had a thick book of
                    Korean terminology to learn to complete my il dan test. I've got some
                    facility with languages (I know 4 pretty well) and am fortunate to possess
                    an eidetic memory. It was still a lot of stuff to learn. Korean isn't
                    an Indo-European or Sino-Tibetan language, for one thing -- it's
                    an agglutinative language related to Mongolian and Turkish. (It's got a
                    ton of Chinese loanwords, though.) So it's *different*. Still, I learned
                    it, and I've had to babysit my students through learning it, too.


                    Originally posted by LSN
                    A lot of grown men, when put into a TKD sparring situation for the first year, kick the legs, the groin, the back with wild abandon. If you aren't expecting this (because you know it's against the rules), it's very dangerous!
                    I train now in a form of Kung Fu known as Wun Hop Kuen Do which is about as far away from TKD as one can get. There is A LOT of sweeping, elbowing, kneeing; it's brutal.
                    I've seen the style. I've also got a black belt in jiu jitsu, where tournament fights
                    are won with all kinds of stuff that TKD considers illegal in controlled free sparring.
                    One should know what one is getting into before doing such things. :-]

                    Sparring takes on a whole new meaning once the pads are gone and the rules allow for shots to the kidney! I'm 37 and I often times feel like I'm getting too old for this stuff. :lol: Ever feel that way, LSN?
                    Agreed about kidney shots, leg sweeps, choke holds, fumikomi to shatter the
                    legs, etc. I teach this stuff in the self-defense portion of TKD, but a lot of the
                    kids in the class don't connect the dots to understand the level of mayhem
                    possible.

                    As for the age factor, I'm going to be 49 next week. I understand perfectly.
                    When you get older, you need to train differently, because you don't recover
                    as quickly. Also, one just isn't as quick. :( Adjustments must be made. Still, it's
                    curious, but when you get to the point where you can't win every match on
                    pure physical ability, you get more analytical. (I was pretty analytical to start
                    off, which helped.) This pays dividends when the time comes to teach it to
                    others.

                    By the way, Ibuprofen or Aspirin are your friends after a tough workout.
                    The jacuzzi tub helps, too. (This is California. :-]) TKD and similar exercises
                    are rough on the body. But the thing that I find roughest is the training
                    on the track to keep up cardiovascular fitness. I was a hurdler in high school.
                    Few people would believe it now. :-]

                    LSN

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by PsychicWarVeteran
                      I train now in a form of Kung Fu known as Wun Hop Kuen Do which is about as far away from TKD as one can get. There is A LOT of sweeping, elbowing, kneeing; it's brutal. Sparring takes on a whole new meaning once the pads are gone and the rules allow for shots to the kidney! I'm 37 and I often times feel like I'm getting too old for this stuff. :lol: Ever feel that way, LSN?
                      PWV, I meant to add, I hope you completed your basic TKD training up to
                      1st degree black belt before moving to a new martial art.

                      A lot of people stop before they get there, discouraged
                      by how much time it takes, or they lose their motivation, or they just lose
                      confidence. The national statistics for people who complete their black belts
                      is, as they guy said about alludium phosdex in "Duck Dodgers in the
                      25th-and-a-half Century", "alarmingly low." :-] The % of those who complete
                      the black belt is smaller than 1%. Not good. I go to a lot of trouble to keep
                      people moving forward when they get to about blue or red belt. That's when
                      a lot of them give it up.

                      Of course, I don't teach at a commerical TKD academy. My teacher and I are
                      volunteers, who accept no money for the instruction we provide. Commercial
                      TKD academies do it differently. They cost a lot of money, too. :-] It's expensive
                      enough to file the paperwork with the Kukkiwon in Korea, I thought. I look on
                      it as a chance to get a work out, and teach people at the same time. Charging
                      money for teaching TKD? I understand the notion, but I can't see myself doing
                      it.

                      I've heard remarks from people at commercial TKD studios to the effect that our
                      students get what they pay for. I'd ask, why do our students do so well against
                      most of theirs? Perhaps we've just got better students. :) ;)

                      LSN

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Well, let's see... I advanced up through Dan Bo, which master Park informed me was Black Belt, though not first degree. When I asked what was required to get my first Dan, he said I just needed to take the test and, of course, pass it.

                        I came to find out that the only differences between my 1st Dan test and the Dan Bo test I had just taken were an extra breaking set, an extra form, and a $400 testing fee. (The Dan Bo test was very difficult; I threw up by the end.)

                        Master Park had been more than fair with his rates, so I couldn't complain about the testing fee, but fact was I didn't have the extra dough.

                        To make things worse, I was moving to a town some thirty miles away. So, I sadly said goodbye to my Kwan Jang Nym and went on my way. (I have since thought about going back to visit him, but I know he'll expect to see Koryo poomse, and I don't think I remember it well enough to do him honor. :oops:

                        I competed all through my training in both forms and fighting and occasionally won (trophies for forms, medals for fighting). Those trinkets are stashed away somewhere, though, along with my belt.

                        What I had originally wanted to learn was a fighting style, not a sport. TKD was an excellent start into martial arts and I greatly wish I could have stayed with Master Park and gained the skill in fighting that Hap Ki Do has to offer. (I would never go for a dolio chagi in a street fight, if you know what I mean.)

                        It took me three years to reach Dan Bo but I was never discouraged by the time and practice that was required. Master Park, an eighth-degree Grandmaster, was such an inspiration and such a phenominal treacher that I was never bored or disheartened.

                        All my belt promotions are registered with Kukkiwon. And if I may brag: Master Park's master is Kyo Yoon Lee, president of the World Tae Kwon Do Federation. Truly, I learned TKD from one of the best!

                        Here's his bio from his website:
                        http://www.masterparkstkd.com/masterPark.html
                        "Wounds are all I'm made of. Did I hear you say that this is victory?"
                        --Michael Moorcock, Veteran of the Psychic Wars

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by PsychicWarVeteran
                          Well, let's see... I advanced up through Dan Bo, which master Park informed me was Black Belt, though not first degree. When I asked what was required to get my first Dan, he said I just needed to take the test and, of course, pass it.

                          I came to find out that the only differences between my 1st Dan test and the Dan Bo test I had just taken were an extra breaking set, an extra form, and a $400 testing fee. (The Dan Bo test was very difficult; I threw up by the end.)
                          No kidding. The tests are notorious for doing that to people. I've
                          had teenagers who appeared to be in good shape have problems
                          with it.




                          Master Park had been more than fair with his rates, so I couldn't complain about the testing fee, but fact was I didn't have the extra dough.
                          Some schools offer what's called "regional certification." The people at the
                          Kukkiwon combine a desire to sell intangibles with a well-developed cupidity
                          that makes the il dan certification a bit pricey, to say the least. Regional
                          ceritification typically runs about a third of the price of Kukkiwon certification.

                          I recommend that to my students who have a hard time with the price.

                          To make things worse, I was moving to a town some thirty miles away. So, I sadly said goodbye to my Kwan Jang Nym and went on my way. (I have since thought about going back to visit him, but I know he'll expect to see Koryo poomse, and I don't think I remember it well enough to do him honor. :oops:
                          Koryo is tied with Taegeuk Pal Jang as my favorite poomse. There are moves
                          in Koryo that are part of my fundamental fighting style, which is why I find it
                          congenial. A pity you didn't "finish," but one can't argue with your reasons.

                          I competed all through my training in both forms and fighting and occasionally won (trophies for forms, medals for fighting). Those trinkets are stashed away somewhere, though, along with my belt.
                          Hope they don't get lost. I sometimes think there's a special dimension to where all the
                          things we've stored away, then can't find again, migrate. If you find that place, and
                          can find my black belt from Shotokan, let me know. ;)

                          What I had originally wanted to learn was a fighting style, not a sport. TKD was an excellent start into martial arts and I greatly wish I could have stayed with Master Park and gained the skill in fighting that Hap Ki Do has to offer. (I would never go for a dolio chagi in a street fight, if you know what I mean.)
                          A circular kick to the knee, however, is effective if you're fast with the low roundhouse.
                          Head-high roundhouse kicks are effective in such situations as second or third kicks,
                          not first, unless you're unbelievably fast. The chance of missing makes them a bit
                          problematic, too.

                          TKD is often taught as a sport these days. My teacher and I spend at least one
                          third of the class on self-defense. This includes a lot of ground work, submission
                          holds, hand strikes, and the like. It also requires us to teach breakfalls as in
                          Hapkido. Hapkido has a very large syllabus, though, and we don't teach many of
                          the things in it. That would take 5 days a week, which for us volunteers, is a little
                          too much. :)

                          LSN

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by LSN
                            A circular kick to the knee, however, is effective if you're fast with the low roundhouse.
                            Or those non-scoring side kicks we were talking about; they're also great at tearing up knees.

                            Although, having studied WHKD for so long, I'm now inclined to come inside and use my knees and elbows. Unless, of course, I'm up against a TKD practitioner who won't let me inside.

                            Originally posted by LSN
                            My teacher and I spend at least one third of the class on self-defense. This includes a lot of ground work, submission holds, hand strikes, and the like.
                            Master Park taught us self defense, too, don't get me wrong. And I am very thankful to have acquired the high-kicking ability. I truly believe TKD was the best place to start.

                            This conversation of ours has me seriously thinking about going back to see Master Park. I'm sure another three years under him would earn me my il dan! :)
                            "Wounds are all I'm made of. Did I hear you say that this is victory?"
                            --Michael Moorcock, Veteran of the Psychic Wars

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              I took Tae Jitsu in College. So I learned the trows and wrist locks. It would be nice to relearn some of that stuf.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by PsychicWarVeteran
                                Originally posted by LSN
                                A circular kick to the knee, however, is effective if you're fast with the low roundhouse.
                                Or those non-scoring side kicks we were talking about; they're also great at tearing up knees.
                                That's classic karate. They are indeed effective, because they're fast, powerful,
                                and (to someone not expecting them) surprising. The problem is that they're
                                easy to side-step. I picked up some tricks years ago from watching Bill Wallace
                                that work well in this situation. Wallace threw snap kicks (speed! speed!) with
                                his front leg. He threw side kick, roundhouse kick, and hook kick (we'd call
                                it hoorio chagi) with the same motion. If he threw a side kick and the opponent
                                tried to step behind him, he contiinued it as a hook kick; if they stepped to the
                                other side, he turned it into a roundhouse kick.

                                This works. The trick is to be "flexible" in one's approach. If you throw
                                the side kick at the knee and they skip to the side to counter, you still
                                take out the knee with a circular kick. Circular kicks are harder to dodge,
                                as you know.

                                You've probably worked out some of the principles of doing this already,
                                but they can be extended to self-defense, too. ;)

                                Although, having studied WHKD for so long, I'm now inclined to come inside and use my knees and elbows. Unless, of course, I'm up against a TKD practitioner who won't let me inside.
                                The is appropriate. If you are an effective close-in fighter, you can
                                frustrate the defensive attempts of pure TKD. Hapkido is an "impure" form,
                                in a sense, because in a way, it combines Aikido, TKD, and the finger locks
                                and weapons curriculum of traditional Japanese ryua. Hapkido is in a sense
                                a modern "synthetic" martial art, and that synthesis is a good one.

                                TKD will work well against a Neanderthal fighting approach. However, some
                                opponents aren't Neanderthals. THe stuff you're studying now complements
                                TKD nicely. If you ever get a chance to take up Aikido or jiu jitsu (or Hapkido),
                                you might find it interesting.

                                Warning: a lot of the stuff in Aikido and jiu jitsu is rough on the knees. That's
                                one reason I don't participate in it too often anymore.

                                LSN

                                P.S. As I tell my students when I refuse to do certain maneuvres on the ground
                                more than 4 or 5 times, I'm not old, I'm superannuated. ;)

                                One 16 year old student said to me last year, "Wow! I heard, you're like,
                                47!" "That's right." "You're even older than my dad! It's like, how do you
                                do this stuff at your age?" "Well, I get the people in the rest home to dress
                                me in my dobok and help me into my motorized wheelchair; then I go to the
                                dojang. Simple, eh?"

                                Comment

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