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  • Talisant
    Talisant
    Champion of the Balance
    Talisant
    Champion of the Balance
    • Dec 2003
    • 1299

    #31
    pixi, I don't think they actually started it, though some were definately apologists and proselytizers, what a shame, wonderful visionary art/short sighted politics.

    Kyrinn, I thought some the American colonists DID strive for liberty against Britain and her army, and in a limited sense, won big time...I'd love to read your history books sometime, to see what the spread of events is between our obviously divergent streams of the Multiverse.
    "A man is no man who cannot have a fried mackerel when he has set his mind on it; and more especially when he has money in his pocket to pay for it." - E.A. Poe's NICHOLAS DUNKS; OR, FRIED MACKEREL FOR DINNER

    Comment

    • Kyrinn S. Eis
      Kyrinn S. Eis
      Psychwar Vet
      Kyrinn S. Eis
      Psychwar Vet
      • Aug 2007
      • 2585

      #32
      Cute.
      And, if I am not mistaken (and I am not), many died in that conflict.

      Thus: "Give me Liberty, or give me death." -- Not: "Give me Liberty lest I protest vehemently."
      Ani Maamin B'emunah Sh'leimah B'viyat Hamashiach. V'af al pi sheyitmahmehah im kol zeh achake lo b'chol yom sheyavo.

      "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." - Phillip K. Dick

      Comment

      • Talisant
        Talisant
        Champion of the Balance
        Talisant
        Champion of the Balance
        • Dec 2003
        • 1299

        #33
        Ah, David made the comment that "in the Western tradition we seemed to prefer death to liberty" with two slogans from early American history to illustrate his idea, however, I believe that "we" strive rather for Liberty, death may come to everyman, Liberty's rather more elusive.
        Talisant
        Champion of the Balance
        Last edited by Talisant; 01-30-2009, 03:52 AM.
        "A man is no man who cannot have a fried mackerel when he has set his mind on it; and more especially when he has money in his pocket to pay for it." - E.A. Poe's NICHOLAS DUNKS; OR, FRIED MACKEREL FOR DINNER

        Comment

        • David Mosley
          David Mosley
          Eternal Administrator
          David Mosley
          Eternal Administrator
          • Jul 2004
          • 11823

          #34
          To clarify, the point I was trying to make - a little rhetorically perhaps - is in the West we seem to regard the ability to live free as more important than the freedom to live. 'Give me Liberty or give me Death' translates as 'I'd rather die than be a slave', ditto 'Live free or die', while the NRA's slogan is little more than 'over my dead body'.

          In other words, the Western tradition basically seems to say we value our liberty to destroy ourselves more highly than the survival of our species. The emphasis is on the individual rather than the group. In other cultures, i.e. North Korea, the ability/willingness of 'the People' to subjugate their individuality to produce something like the Mass Games is both awe inspiring in what humans can achieve when they all work together with a single goal in mind and concurrently more than a little creepy because by eliminating all individuality something is produced that seems less than human.

          In both the ficitious examples of fascism I gave earlier, Fascism was a reaction to a catastrophic event that threatened the 'group' with potential extinction. Now, in the real world Fascism has managed to come about without recourse to Mass Extinction Events, but I believe the question was how could Fascism ever be a Good Thing? Which is puzzling because on the surface Fascism's 'strength in numbers' is exactly the sort of thing we demand from Consumerism; the more people who want something the cheaper it can be made to be. The way big bookchains are able to leverage better discounts than independent bookshops is another example of 'strength in numbers'; when the workers go on strike they are able to make greater demands of management if they maintain solidarity as a whole rather than some arguing for one thing, others for another and still others not participating in the strike at all.

          Fascism could be construed as being essentially anti-Freedom rather than anti-Life, except most of the real-life examples we have of Fascism have exhibeted an anti-Life component whether in Hitler's Final Solution, Stalin's 'purges', Pol Pot's 'Year Zero', etc. The Fascist would (I guess) say that they were getting rid of elements inconducive to the well-being/survive of the majority in the same way as a surgeon might amputate a gangerous limb in order to save the rest of the body. It is, of course, the chilling, cold-blooded, even forensic manner in which those who are declared 'unmutual' are disposed of that is anthema to us. But then we could be said to be able to afford the luxury of not having to make those sorts of decisions because we're not standing on the brink of extinction (yet).
          _"For an eternity Allard was alone in an icy limbo where all the colours were bright and sharp and comfortless.
          _For another eternity Allard swam through seas without end, all green and cool and deep, where distorted creatures drifted, sometimes attacking him.
          _And then, at last, he had reached the real world – the world he had created, where he was God and could create or destroy whatever he wished.
          _He was supremely powerful. He told planets to destroy themselves, and they did. He created suns. Beautiful women flocked to be his. Of all men, he was the mightiest. Of all gods, he was the greatest."

          Comment

          • Kyrinn S. Eis
            Kyrinn S. Eis
            Psychwar Vet
            Kyrinn S. Eis
            Psychwar Vet
            • Aug 2007
            • 2585

            #35
            Also, the clinicality of using GPS-guided munitions to Liberate the stuffing out of a group of folks we are bringing Capitalism/Democracy to.

            The American Apostles: Cola (cool, refreshing poison), Cigarettes (hunger-distracting poison), Greenbacks (soulish-poison).

            Yay!
            Ani Maamin B'emunah Sh'leimah B'viyat Hamashiach. V'af al pi sheyitmahmehah im kol zeh achake lo b'chol yom sheyavo.

            "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." - Phillip K. Dick

            Comment

            • Talisant
              Talisant
              Champion of the Balance
              Talisant
              Champion of the Balance
              • Dec 2003
              • 1299

              #36
              Originally posted by David Mosley View Post
              To clarify, the point I was trying to make - a little rhetorically perhaps - is in the West we seem to regard the ability to live free as more important than the freedom to live. 'Give me Liberty or give me Death' translates as 'I'd rather die than be a slave', ditto 'Live free or die', while the NRA's slogan is little more than 'over my dead body'.
              Patrick Henry was a gifted political writer/orator, not a member of the Heav3n's Gate cult, he garnered supporters for a revolution, not a flock for a Jamest0wn massacre, in military terms think Lexington and Concord rather than Masada.

              In other words, the Western tradition basically seems to say we value our liberty to destroy ourselves more highly than the survival of our species. The emphasis is on the individual rather than the group. In other cultures, i.e. North Korea, the ability/willingness of 'the People' to subjugate their individuality to produce something like the Mass Games is both awe inspiring in what humans can achieve when they all work together with a single goal in mind and concurrently more than a little creepy because by eliminating all individuality something is produced that seems less than human.
              I believe that the executive gatekeepers of possibly all traditions have valued their value systems, passively or actively, above the lives of people both inside and outside their system, and it is only through consciences of individuals that oppression, even to your hypothetical nth degree species purge, is defeated or derailed.

              I'm with you on the creep factor on the North K0rean games. Subjugation of the individual will for the common good? Mass starvation for the commoners, good for the rulers.

              In both the ficitious examples of fascism I gave earlier, Fascism was a reaction to a catastrophic event that threatened the 'group' with potential extinction. Now, in the real world Fascism has managed to come about without recourse to Mass Extinction Events, but I believe the question was how could Fascism ever be a Good Thing? Which is puzzling because on the surface Fascism's 'strength in numbers' is exactly the sort of thing we demand from Consumerism; the more people who want something the cheaper it can be made to be. The way big bookchains are able to leverage better discounts than independent bookshops is another example of 'strength in numbers'; when the workers go on strike they are able to make greater demands of management if they maintain solidarity as a whole rather than some arguing for one thing, others for another and still others not participating in the strike at all.
              Some buy because of or in spite of facades. Consumerism is a good thing? It's capitalism on crack. Cheap shoddy occasionally dangerous goods, which can't be repaired? I thought everyone knew to buy from the earlier, slightly more expensive runs of consumer goods, i.e. vcrs with the good record heads and metal gears that will last decades (ah- those early workhorse Omnivisions) and are repairable, rather than later ones where everthing's plastic and wears out in a couple of years, boomboxes loaded with options ambient stereo mics highspeed dubbing, plenty of in and out plugs for looping, again better record heads and metal gears that'll last, or, say, lawn mowers, Hel-mart's cost less, but key motor pieces will wear out in 1/10 the time that an identical looking one from a small engines store, because again, it has more industrial use internals in the motor. If you're lucky, knowledgeable, and willing to spend abit more it can save you time, money, and headaches in the long run. Mike hit on this recently in the Q&A media section:

              Originally posted by Michael Moorcock View Post
              ...Those clothes are almost as old as me. It pays to invest in good British tweed but, of course, it means you hardly ever need any new clothes. I'm wearing that waistcoat in my 50th birthday photos, and I'd had it for about twenty years before that!
              From reading posts here it seems that book chainstores don't cater to most of the sensibilities of the denizens of this site...so I think a better reference for your stance would be, cancer, cancer is stronger the more it spreads, so after a certain time it kills off enough of it competition...it's effect and efficient leverage wins it's battle (but alas, seals it's own fate).
              Give me local, quirky, musty, slightly higher priced books stores anyday, and I'll work something out for it in my budget.

              As applied to political systems, to me it makes sense to strive for something of true use and good value, a tool for better lives of the individuals which make up society, if it "costs" more, it may also be "worth" more, if the individual chooses to join in concert with other individuals, fine, but it seems to me that to forsake quality for what usually turns out to be ill-conceived efficency is a formula for disaster.

              Fascism could be construed as being essentially anti-Freedom rather than anti-Life, except most of the real-life examples we have of Fascism have exhibeted an anti-Life component whether in Hitler's Final Solution, Stalin's 'purges', Pol Pot's 'Year Zero', etc. The Fascist would (I guess) say that they were getting rid of elements inconducive to the well-being/survive of the majority in the same way as a surgeon might amputate a gangerous limb in order to save the rest of the body. It is, of course, the chilling, cold-blooded, even forensic manner in which those who are declared 'unmutual' are disposed of that is anthema to us.
              Cutting nose off to spite the face, or possibly the other way round is more appropriate, One (regime) cutting the face off to spite the nose...no, not so good an analogy, and not manic enough, more like a gangerous limb seducing a mad surgeon into detaching it from it's body, then destroying the body and getting the surgeon to try to keep it alive in a jar (and what about the neo-corporatist hmo funding the fiendish endeavor?) yikes!

              But then we could be said to be able to afford the luxury of not having to make those sorts of decisions because we're not standing on the brink of extinction (yet).
              Exactly the time to choose paths to avoid the possible necessity.
              Talisant
              Champion of the Balance
              Last edited by Talisant; 01-30-2009, 06:39 PM. Reason: no good reason
              "A man is no man who cannot have a fried mackerel when he has set his mind on it; and more especially when he has money in his pocket to pay for it." - E.A. Poe's NICHOLAS DUNKS; OR, FRIED MACKEREL FOR DINNER

              Comment

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