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Torture in Abu Ghraib Prison

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  • #61
    Originally posted by LEtranger
    Whatever is the case, this thread is a quagmire and has lost all structure and transparency. I leave.
    Kind of like Iraq...
    When they had advanced together to meet on common
    ground, then there was the clash of shields, of spears
    and the fury of men cased in bronze; bossed shields met
    each other and the din rose loud. Then there were
    mingled the groaning and the crowing of men killed and
    killing, and the ground ran with blood.

    Homer, The Illiad

    Comment


    • #62
      It's too bad we have to resort to name calling when we encounter those who don't share our point of view. That goes for all parties. Alas, since we aren't censoring this, we'll just have to observe the perspectives and ideas of others or not read their posts at all. I'm working on the ignore feature soon again. My first attempt was a failure.

      Originally posted by Anonymous
      I am not here because I care what some dipshit sitting in their mother's basement thinks about the global economy.
      The cat spread its wings and flew high into the air, hovering to keep pace with them as they moved cautiously toward the city. Then, as they climbed over the rubble of what had once been a gateway and began to make their way through piles of weed-grown masonry, the cat flew to the squat building with the yellow dome upon its roof. It flew twice around the dome and then came back to settle on Jhary's shoulder. - The King of the Swords

      Comment


      • #63
        Berry:

        This may be my fault, at least in part. I go at this somewhat ruthlessly sometimes. And I don't actually mind the name calling myself. I take and give offense equally well I think.

        As I have said already, these are emotionally charged issues - over which we half debate, half commiserate.

        It is awful some of the things we have to think about and toss around - I mean, given that we are ostensibly the "white hats" and all.

        There's a lot of pent up frustration.

        Comment


        • #64
          Hmmmm.

          Well then, maybe you could be less acerbic towards people.

          Lest anyone get the idea I am monitoring for content, I just happend to pick this thread up again due to needing a serious distraction. You guys know I'm not playing Big Brother because everyone can still see the posts.

          I just felt that maybe a cold shower is what was needed at this time. See, I don't really see anyone using hate speech here, so I'm not all that concerned. Consider it a request to all members and visitors by me, not the Admin, but a fellow member. Name calling is the on-ramp to the autobahn of hate. I think intentional provacations that shift away from debate can lead to the same place. Fortunately, no one is forcing anyone to read others' posts.

          I implore all members and visitors to consider other readers, but, as I've said elsewhere, unless it's hate or porn, I won't be silencing anyone. DL shouldn't feel singled out nor should krunky. I think our conservative friends are at a bit of a disadvantage here, but their input is valuable and it is my hope that we will respect them. Would we know as much about this stuff if it weren't for these lively posts and debates? It is important that we preserve and enhance the debates.

          Put antoher way, you can be respectful of someone without climbing into bed with them.
          The cat spread its wings and flew high into the air, hovering to keep pace with them as they moved cautiously toward the city. Then, as they climbed over the rubble of what had once been a gateway and began to make their way through piles of weed-grown masonry, the cat flew to the squat building with the yellow dome upon its roof. It flew twice around the dome and then came back to settle on Jhary's shoulder. - The King of the Swords

          Comment


          • #65
            Furthermore

            I was against setting the Q&A up as a threaded forum. I knew that threads and personalities would mix and not always for the optimum happiness level for all. But I did it anyway because of a firm belief that a community would form and police itself as it were.

            I don't do a lot of posting in these threads, because, quite frankly, I have a fairly acerbic personality that shines through in my posts. Posts that are a part of a debate, that is. When I started this thing in 1996 I didn't know exactly what I was getting myself into. I didn't even know that I was a somewhat surly poster until a couple of years later.

            Lately I've been feeling emotionally attached to the various members here. I don't want to rattle off names lest I leave someone out, but suffice it to say that I dig everyone around here. This stupid forum system makes it too easy to feel like you're connected. We are all influenced by some things in common like the war and Michael. I find a kind of chaotic peace of mind here. Knowing that someone somewhere is trying to figure the world out in similiar terms (or quite different) as me.

            What we all have in common, I believe (and I believe it sets us apart from many, though doesn't make us superior), is that we are desperately trying to figure this mess out.

            Might sound corny, but you guys are my best friends and I think we need one another.
            The cat spread its wings and flew high into the air, hovering to keep pace with them as they moved cautiously toward the city. Then, as they climbed over the rubble of what had once been a gateway and began to make their way through piles of weed-grown masonry, the cat flew to the squat building with the yellow dome upon its roof. It flew twice around the dome and then came back to settle on Jhary's shoulder. - The King of the Swords

            Comment


            • #66
              Berry,

              I love you man! (say in drunken tone for full effect). :lol:

              :oops:
              When they had advanced together to meet on common
              ground, then there was the clash of shields, of spears
              and the fury of men cased in bronze; bossed shields met
              each other and the din rose loud. Then there were
              mingled the groaning and the crowing of men killed and
              killing, and the ground ran with blood.

              Homer, The Illiad

              Comment


              • #67
                :lol:

                <drunken voiced>I LOVE YOU TOO MAN!</drunken voiced>

                Originally posted by VonWeiner
                Berry,

                I love you man! (say in drunken tone for full effect). :lol:

                :oops:
                The cat spread its wings and flew high into the air, hovering to keep pace with them as they moved cautiously toward the city. Then, as they climbed over the rubble of what had once been a gateway and began to make their way through piles of weed-grown masonry, the cat flew to the squat building with the yellow dome upon its roof. It flew twice around the dome and then came back to settle on Jhary's shoulder. - The King of the Swords

                Comment


                • #68
                  Berry - let's just say your efforts are respected in this quarter!

                  Don't know if dLackey will be back reading this, but strangely I think this is sort of representative of the Balance in Mike's work; as I undersand it (and that bloke who wrote Bablylon 5!), the 'war' between Law and Chaos is what maintains the balance - that is, in fact, their purpose, with the forces of the Balance itself only acting when a crisis threatens victory for one side or the other - as opposed to some rigourously enforced impartial balance, judging all who are not perfectly aligned.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    At the risk of saying nothing original, I agree completely with Jules--on both accounts.

                    First and foremost, I think all of us appreciate what you do around here, Berry. You've created and maintained a great place, and have gone to great lengths to make all of us feel safe, welcome, and befriended.

                    To also echo another point of Jules':
                    I hope we continue to have other viewpoints. A continual "me too" is not only dreadful, it doesn't represent any kind of balance, metaphorically or otherwise. I like hearing another side (admittedly, I especially like it when it comes from Bill because he rises to the challege nobly), especially when it doesn't seem preachy or dogmatic. I don't even like my own ideas thrown at me that way. You don't learn from a chorus of agreement. You think when you're challenged.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      "This may be my fault, at least in part. I go at this somewhat ruthlessly sometimes. And I don't actually mind the name calling myself. I take and give offense equally well I think."

                      I'm in this too, and like Krunky, I don't take the names personally, although I do wish we had better arguments than that. If nothing else, you can't question anyone's heart here. They may or may not be right or realistic (this isn't a dig on Krunky or anyone else; I am speaking generally and including myself) but they are speaking from a position of caring.

                      I appreciate what Berry does, too, and he seems a nice guy to boot, but would implore him to continue to keep the line where it is. We have been lucky in that most of the posts add something new (the "Bill's a c***" post notwithstanding), and no one has threatened anyone here. To my mind, anything that might be removed or hidden here to date would be a content restriction, and therefore censorship. It isn't my site, and certainly any editing would be legal, since the site isn't run or funded by the gov't, but I am not in favor of any real restrictions on the flow of ideas. I know I have learned a lot since the debate heated up a couple months ago, and if nothing else, people who vehemently disagree with me have kept me on my toes.

                      I would guess, though, that if there was any issue that EVERYONE here could agree on, it would be that censorship is wrong.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        i've been a member of a few forums in my day, not all of them peopled with the wit of this one. i consider it a great honor to banter back and forth with people here, respectfully of course.

                        i think the key is in putting the discussion before the personalities.
                        but familiarity breeds contempt, so they say, and camraderie often lends itself to sharp words.

                        yet, all in all, this has got to be the most enlightened forum i've been on.

                        here endith the lesson

                        rcr

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Fantastic Keynes quote in the paper recently :
                          'When I find I'm wrong, I change my mind - what do you do?'

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Anonymous
                            I am not here because I care what some dipshit sitting in their mother's basement thinks about the global economy.
                            I was reminded of this part again today...And hey, what can I say? When I was back with my mommy I had it WAY easy and I had no opinions about global economics. Not really anyway...

                            Geez, I wish - I had my own room (approx. 16'x18'), bathroom, private exit to the back patio area, Spider 2000 convertible, and spot in the 4 car garage. Free room and board, laundry, cable, and access to a 20'x40' bean shaped pool with an 8 person spa. I designed the pool and we had it made esp. deep (12') which required special permits, it sported a spring board and a shelf for sitting at the deep end (no metal ladder). My samoyed ("Elric" - no shit) wandered the huge backyard and would sometimes come in and watch me draw or whatever, either that or chase coyotes. From the age of 16 up I was free to bring lovers home and maintain a locked door on my bedroom. We lived in Westlake Village, CA (the trails) and my allowance was $30 a week for mowing the lawn, taking the trash cans to the curb, and upkeep on the pool. The year was 1980 and I was young and supernaturally good looking. My parents were often away for months at a time and I would handle the house finances (in other words, the minimum $30 a week was just for whatever I wanted to blow it on). I got straight "A"s and maintained a part time job at a local gas station. On a regular basis my friends and I would harass famous personalities Mickey Rooney or Robert Young (a widower and alcoholic we mercilessly annoyed most mornings by making him "catdance" with a BB gun while he got his morning paper).

                            Yeah, you can't make stuff like that up. It happened. I wasn't as nice then as I am now. Oh yeah, and past experience is precisely why I don't like domestic help.

                            Take me back home...I'm ready to go.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Abu Ghraib?s Women Prisoners
                              Khilafah.com Journal, Updated on 2004-05-26 13:37:22

                              http://www.paknews.com/PrintPage.php...ews2=articles1

                              Much has been made of the sexual humiliation of the men incarcerated by the Crusaders in Abu Ghraib Prison. However the abuse of the female prisoners at Abu Ghraib, and other prisons in Iraq, have gone nearly unnoticed. Although it took photographs to wake the world's attention to the shenanigans, within the cells, it was actually a letter scribed by a woman prisoner that first exposed what was going on in the infamous prison. The contents of a note that was smuggled out of the prison were so shocking that, at first, Amal Kadham Swadi and the other Iraqi women lawyers who had been trying to gain access to the jail found them hard to believe. It claimed that US guards had been raping women detainees. Several of the women were now pregnant, it added. The women had been forced to strip naked in front of men, it said.

                              Swadi, one of seven female lawyers now representing women detainees in Abu Ghraib, began to piece together a picture of systemic abuse and torture perpetrated by US guards against Iraqi women held in detention without charge. This was not only true of Abu Ghraib, she discovered, but was, as she put it, "happening all across Iraq". In November 2003, Swadi visited a woman detainee at a US military base at al-Kharkh, a former police compound in Baghdad. "She was the only woman who would talk about her case. She was crying. She told us she had been raped," Swadi says. "Several American soldiers had raped her. She had tried to fight them off and they had hurt her arm. She showed us the stitches. She told us, 'We have daughters and husbands. For God's sake don't tell anyone about this.'" During Swadi's visit to Abu Ghraib in March, one of the prisoners told her that she had been forced to undress in front of US soldiers. "The Iraqi translator turned his head in embarrassment," she said.

                              ...

                              The women appear to have been arrested - not because of anything they have done, but merely because of who they are married to, and their potential intelligence value. US officials have previously acknowledged detaining Iraqi women in the hope of convincing male relatives to provide information; when US soldiers raid a house and fail to find a male suspect, they will frequently take away his wife or daughter instead.

                              ---------------------------------------------

                              So now we are flat out holding people hostage AND maltreating them the whole while...

                              Whose signature is on this plan, BTW?

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                3rd of detainees who died were assaulted Shot, strangled, beaten, certificates show
                                By Tom Squitieri and Dave Moniz, USA TODAY

                                http://www.usatoday.com/usatonline/2...1/6248555s.htm

                                WASHINGTON -- More than a third of the prisoners who died in U.S. custody in Iraq and Afghanistan were shot, strangled or beaten by U.S. personnel before they died, according to death certificates and a high-ranking U.S. military official.

                                The military official, who has direct knowledge of ongoing Pentagon investigations of the deaths, said that 15 of 37 prisoners who have died since December 2002 appear to have been killed or put in grave danger by U.S. troops or interrogators. In some cases, the immediate cause of death was listed as a heart attack, but that was in turn caused by a beating.

                                Some of the cases have been cleared. Four of the 15 deaths occurred when guards shot detainees in Iraq during a prison riot at Abu Ghraib prison in November 2003; the shootings have been ruled justifiable homicides.

                                In another case, a guard who shot a prisoner to death for throwing rocks at him was demoted and dishonorably discharged.

                                Comment

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