Call for an End of Executions

[Groakes]

This is such a loaded topic and was one I hesitated entering in to as I want to avoid losing the respect of my friends here....

As a rule I don't agree with state imposed punishments. I don't believe that prisons work as a form of rehabilitation and I certainly don't agree with the concept of some form of communal vengeance in the form of execution being meted out under the masquerade of justice against those who cannot afford the best legal representation.

BUT

I don't see the execution of serial killers as being a matter of justice or vengeance or punishment, rather than the killing (and I'm not shying away from the term - it's not execution, which I don't support and it's not euthanasia which I do support) of a sick and dangerous animal - the rabid dog analogy I used before was purposeful.

I don't necessarily hold with a concept of the "sanctity of human life" - above other life at least. I do believe that the definition of human cannot be contained in merely the biological or genetic definition. And while I can't pretend to know where "humanity" starts, I would suggest that the killing of others to fulfill an essentially sexual desire or need is well past where it ends. So I guess I view the killing of sexually motivated serial murderers as being self defence on a communal level.

Solutions such as chemical castration generally don't work - in fact there is some evidence to suggest that it might make a bad situation much worse in that chemical castration doesn't remove the "desire" it only inhibits the ability. A situation which can lead to deep frustration that may only be "relieved" in more violent and dangerous ways.

(and in cases such as John Wayne Gacy, Fred West, Dennis Nillsen, Jeffrey Dahmer etc, there was ZERO doubt that they had committed these murders)

This is such a difficult subject and like the rest of life, I don't think it can be dealt with in purely black and white terms.

[thingfish]

Guys Guys!!
If you look at what i said the operative word was "might".
Im only chucking in suggestions here
But plain common sense tells you that you cant tell everyone that something is wrong and then turn around and do it yourself then expect to maintain the respect of everyone.
Execution to me is just laziness,and as you just pointed out Adlerian people should be made to live what they have done in their heads until they either die naturally or by their own hand.
And Groakes no-one should respect you less for sharing your honest opinion
I certainly dont.

[Kevin McCabe]

Ach, leave off. I don't agree with Groakes either, but he has a right to his opinion. He's an honest anarchist who really doesn't believe in state power. I disagree with his rabid dog analogy because I think de-humanizing people is unacceptable. But, if that's how feels, well he's entitled.

[Groakes]

One of the reasons I love this group is that we CAN have a Reasoned Debate - and we DO!

Yes my position is a very difficult one. Taken to its practical extension, as described by TA - someone somewhere is going to have to push a button, pull a trigger, pull a rope etc. I had thought of a Schrodinger's Cat type scenario but it still has to be designed, built, programmed etc. So yes, from that perspective my position is untenable because I would be forcing someone to be a killer....

With regard to "dehumanising" serial killers (as per Kev), my argument would be that they have dehuamanised themselves by their actions - their actions are not the actions of a human being.

Like I said, my position is a difficult one. And I'm not aware of a single person whose mind has been changed through debate (reasoned or otherwise) in an internet chat room. And I do support the abolition of Capital Punishment around the world.

[thingfish]

Have to put my hand up here and be the first person you are aware of who has had his mind changed by internet chat room.
In fact yer good self and Adlerian changed my opinion completely on the chemical castration idea only a few posts back
In fact my opinion gets changed all the time here as i am not informed enough on any subject really to have carved in stone opinions and love it when somebody points out that i am being a doughball on any given subject

[thingfish]

Absolutely
I sometimes wonder how insular i must have been with my opinions before i started using this fine medium.
To get back on topic,there was yet another call by certain parts of the British media for the return of the death penalty today
They quoted a mother whose daughter had been brutally raped/murdered.
Now i can totally understand this poor ladies feelings and i cant say in the heat of the moment i wouldnt feel the same but the way the press have manipulated her situation is quite sickening really.
Needless to say it seems to be the papers of a certain Mr Murdoch who are running with this particular ball.

[Kevin McCabe]

TF, couldn't have said it better. If someone hurt my daughter, I wouldn't actually want Due Process. Just a knife. But, that would be me at my worst moment. WE are better than anyone at their worst.
Groakes, sorry man, but the subjectivity to decide who is and isn't human belongs to God, if he's there. Men have never been trustworthy on the issue.
Adlerian, sorry if that came off sharp, wasn't meant to.

[Groakes]

Have to put my hand up here and be the first person you are aware of who has had his mind changed by internet chat room.

Perhaps I was a bit general. We have all (I Hope) been informed by others to educate ourselves. I guess I was thinking of the bigger, more deeply held issues, such as pro life/pro choice, gun ownership, existence of god, best Hawkwind album, etc...

I'm not saying position was tenable - and I would never countenance the reintroduction of a "Death Penalty" per se, which admittedly sounds like a major flaw and incredible hypocrisy at the centre of my position.

And I'm not trying to draw a line on where to judge what is human, but suggesting that some acts cross that line so definitively that no other judgement is possible (Taylor's tackle on Eduardo not withstanding)

Anyway, it's great to be here!

[thingfish]

Hit the nail on the head there Adlerian with your point about socialization.
This really has to start at an early age.
I just watched a live debate about the spiralling violence in this neck of the woods and there was much wringing of hands between the pundits and politicians but not one mention of this.
Currently hoarse from shouting at screen
And Groakes that was a 50/50 ball!!

[Kevin McCabe]

In private psychology, perhaps. After all, that is the sort of thing paying clients want to hear. The trend in U.S. Penal Law and in some of the more extreme forms of mental commitments are specifically centered on individual blame. The Canadian academic tract, The Psychology of Criminal Behaviour has been influential. However, even the decision to place criminality as a function of individual psyche is little more than a post-hoc rationalization. Realistically, it was introduced into a vacuum created by rejection of sociological factors as the cause of criminal action. This occurred in the late seventies. The adoption of determinate sentencing (fixed sentencing based on offense and criminal history) which rejects all forms of sociological mitigation followed in the very early eighties. This, as with many other blind policies, mark the rise of Neo-Conservatism. In it's most extreme form, we now see a significant number -perhaps a majority - of states abbrogating the defense of insanity. It is usually replaced with, guilty but mentally ill.

[johneffay]

I guess I was thinking of the bigger, more deeply held issues, such as [...] best Hawkwind album

Yes, I've noticed this which is why I advocate culling people who don't think that it's Space Ritual

[David Mosley]

Yes, I've noticed this which is why I advocate culling people who don't think that it's Space Ritual

Perhaps we could replace the proposed UK ID Card system with that instead; just ask people to carry their favourite Hawkwind CD with them at all times. It'd be much cheaper as well. (Since Space Ritual is the only HW CD I own, I'll be okay. )

[thingfish]

Oh well thats me dead then.
I prefer Levitation.
Bye!!

[Kevin McCabe]

According to Hans Viahinger the justice system has to maintain the fallacy of Free Will, or it would have no grounds to function.

I need to read this guy in a big way. What's he written that I should seek?

[L'Etranger]

Now I found a site that offers sound recordings of executions in Georgia! I don't think I want to open or download one of those files, though it could be a terrific argument against death penalty.
I don't cease to be surprised by what people come up with:
http://soundportraits.org/on-air/exe...ete_audio.php3
http://soundportraits.org/on-air/exe...execution.php3

And more peculiarities: why were there two persons named Tucker Jr. executed the same day for two apparently unrelated crimes? http://soundportraits.org/on-air/exe...ast_words.php3

Is this site ultimately promoting the abolishment of state sanctioned killing or is it there to give people weird sensations - or finally just a proud display of what recordings they got? Any ideas?