Guantanamo Prisoners

[L'Etranger]

I still cannot understand why the imprisonment of human beings in cages without a date of trial and without legal assistance even if many of them may be terrorists is just being passed over unchallenged and hence accepted ...
I find it utterly deplorable that the US government in its "Wild West style handling" of matters (like forcing Indians into reservations) literally stabs into the back of the very ideals AMERICA always stood for and was admired and loved for:
Fairness - Equality - Human Rights - Generousity even for those who did wrong or who opposed her.
Please, America, don't go on disappointing the World and gain back the credibility of your truest ideals!

[Theocrat]

Those in power have most of the time seen that 'bill of rights' as a thorn in their eye. Or something which stands in the way of their prowess.

[Brainstorm]

Democracy?...if Americans think that they live in a democracy they are blind.
Here in the UK we "Think" we live in a democracy,until you open your eyes to the way parliament is actually run.
You can't live in a democracy when,on important issues,MP's have to "Tow the party line" by being Whipped into voting how the Ministers and leaders want them to vote,this is NOT democracy.Each MP should be able to vote as they see fit,and we should all be able to find out how each politician voted,all this "Party" stuff is ruining true politics and true democracy.
What choices do we have in an election?..Labour,Conservative,Liberal Democrats and a few little parties...WOW...the choice is awesome!!(Not).
We need a world wide political change,we all need to "Wake-Up" and give our goverments a good kicking.

[L'Etranger]

I would just like to renew my call to end this unbearable situation immediatey.
How can any civilised country still look away and go on dealing with the current US government as long as it is guilty of barbarism?
How do do you Americans live with this?

You know what? There's an unknown man in Berlin who goes about putting little US flags on dog droppings. Police is puzzled, or pretends to be and doesn't put much effort into catching him (for insulting foreign nation etc ...). This hurts anyone who still believes in the ideals America stands (stood?) for, yet I ask you to understand how frustrating it is!

[Groakes]

Mamdouh Habib, who was recently released from Guantanamo Bay, gave his first interview last night on 60 Minutes. http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=8416

In the inetrview he details allegations of how he was tortured in Pakistan, Egypt and Cuba. He alleges he was beaten, suffered electric shock, sleep deprivation, isolation, denied access to basic toilet facilities, was smeared in menstrual blood, was threatened with a dog he had been told had been specifically trained for sexual abuse and told his entire family had been killed.

While under this interrogation, he confessed to being involved with Al-Queda, including training the September 11 hijackers in martial arts and moving chemical weapons in Afghanistan. This probably goes to prove that torture useless when it comes to extracting "real information".

He was released after three years detention with no apology and no charges were laid. Somewhat undermining his protestations of innocence is his unwillingness to describe why he was in Afghanistan - personally I think he may have been involved in something criminal (heroin trafficking perhaps - who knows?) and got caught in the dragnet.

The fact remains that he was detained, given no access to legal representation, possibly tortured, then set free. If he was (as W described him) "the worst of the worst" why would he be set free???

[L'Etranger]

I would just like to renew my call yet once more to end this unbearable situation immediately.
How can any civilised country still look away and go on dealing with the current US government as long as it is guilty of barbarism?
How do do you Americans live with this?

The camp in Guantanamo and the Abu Ghraib torture cases are the greatest credibility disasters for the United States of America since Viet Nam!

[L'Etranger]

another 1 and a half months later ...

Guantanamo is still a huge thorn in my appreciation of America. I keep coming back to it, sorry. As long as the intolerable, illegal and inhumane situation lasts I refuse to tell my children America is a democracy and a defender of Freedom.
They are screwing the very ideals they brought (back) to us in 1945 and are clearly using the methods of Fascism! This will not convince a single Muslim of the good intentions of the "West" that doesn't stand up to its phoney leader to stop this totalitarian, cynical credibility disaster.

[Doc]

Sadly, I cannot argue with your assessment.

The parallels between Germany and its decent into facism and the present situation in the US are hard to ignore. It isn't a stretch to substitute "Jew" for "suspected Arab terrorist/enemy combatant/detainee*/person without any rights" to make the point.

Moreover, it is indicative of American willingness to roll over and wrap ourselves in our own shortsighted self-involvement. We act as if all of those things that people died to preserve matter differently because of terrorist acts. When we change American life (as well as the world in which we live) the terrorists have already won.

[DeeCrowSeer]

I can't add anything vaguely intelligent to the discussion, but I pretty much agree with your assessment. The idea of locking people up without trial (indefinitely?), and giving them a made-up status so you can dodge your responsibilities is one thing, but then these stories of abuse leak out. I mean, the entire place is an abuse of sorts, but then to add to that by (allegedly) stomping on holy books and so forth... it's just unfathomable to me. Which, I'm sorry to say, is why I try not to fathom it.

I know there's historical precedence, and that it's stupid to believe that things were "better" when you were younger (they weren't, you just didn't read so many newspapers), but it's hard for me to shake the feeling that I went to sleep one night and the world went insane before I woke up. :(

[Mikey_C]

The parallels between Germany and its decent into facism and the present situation in the US are hard to ignore. It isn't a stretch to substitute "Jew" for "suspected Arab terrorist/enemy combatant/detainee*/person without any rights" to make the point.

It is easy to point out that there are no gas chambers at Guantanamo Bay. However, the first Nazi concentration camps were for the detention of political opponents, so there is a disturbing parallel.

Some totalitarian Tory bore was on Radio 4 yesterday morning opining that people who did not adhere to 'our' values had no right to be British citizens; 'our' values including the 'free market', of course. :x

Where am I supposed to go? :?

[Doc]

Dee, the world did go completely insane, and Mikey, I'd invite you to the US, but you know very well that you may be worse off here. I was holding out hope that the UK might actually retain its sanity, but we know that is no longer the case.

I was talking about this set of issues to a friend of mine. She finds the lack of civility represented in this new world order to be most disturbing, in that the people doing all of these things, whether it be as extreme as Guantanamo Bay or not, start with the assumption that they are the ones who are "civilized," so whatever they do--in the name of that supposed civility-- is somehow excused.

More scary are the people who are willing to excuse them. People are more than willing to have people like D. Rumsfeld administering "detention camps" so they may feel a bit safer--even though such practices are making the world far less safe. People want someone to do something--anything--even if it as someone else's expense. Until they are the ones who are guilty until proven innocent.

Forget losing our civility, we're losing our humanity.

[A_Non_Ymous]

In connection with the U.S., its current condition, and its history of fairness, justice, and democracy, people might be interested in perusing an interesting book by Howard Zinn, called A People's History of the United States.

The American public school system often sweeps things under the rug of history. This book does not.

LSN

[Jules]

Dee - the British government introduced internment of British citizens in Northern Ireland, so it is not new madness, but tried and tested bad madness. It did little to prevent IRA terrorism, and a lot towards creating sympathy for the IRA cause (especially through the pattern - now repeating with Muslims - of people being interned then released without charge). Well, that along with a shoot-to-kill policy.

What our leaders fail to realise (when they complain about judges letting people off, etc) is that the seperation of police, judiciary and state evolved to prevent just this sort of bad decision making. I think in part, of course, it is the need to be seen to be doing something, rather than simply saying 'this is a job for the police and security services, not politicians'.

It is amazing how little we can learn from even recent history. 'How not to turn a largely unpolitical community with a sense of grievance into a support network for a hardcore minority'. (Thinking wider - this also applies to crime as well as terrorism - bad policing makes communities draw ranks around criminals, even known murderers, if the community feels victimised).

Still, one does have a sneaking sympathy for the totalitarian Tory bores when exposed to the (tiny minority) of totalitarian Muslim bores who do indeed want to see British values with their own fascist Theocracy; without saying they should leave the country, you do wonder why they don't prefer, say, Iran. Almost certainly because it will be the wrong branch of Islam, and equally certainly they would mostly be arrested in Saudi, and unwanted in the remaining moderate states.

And far better a Tory bore defending the values of 'tolerance' than those other Tories who express a sympathy for the Islamist judgement on our decadant civilisation (usually with some mention of binge-drinking women). It's exactly the sort of judgement they thought they'd have to wait until the afterlife to enjoy.