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I still don't accept Guantanamo!

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  • I still don't accept Guantanamo!

    Do you?
    For me it is incompatible with the claim of "Leadership of the Free World" to withold prisoners a trial over years. It is incompatible with the image imprinted in our European minds for the sacrifice America made to enable us to live in Freedom and Peace and Dignity - and I shall not accept that by our impotence or unwillingness to effect a change of America's folly and blindness today we are fuelling the contempt of America's foes (and those of the West she claims to lead). I mean we are watching by as human beings are being robbed of years of their lives without any verdict!
    Last edited by L'Etranger; 10-18-2006, 07:58 AM.
    Google ergo sum


  • #2
    It is vile. Shameful and vile. Can't really find any justification for that kind of thing.
    The name that can be named is not the true name.

    Comment


    • #3
      Agreeing ....

      It shows that Bush and consorts don't understand the basic tenets of democracy and freedom even when they have theses words in their mouth.

      The only freedom they know is the freedom given by money.

      In the eighteenth century, when writers of the bill of rights wrot about surety, it was security fropm state abuses.

      If Terrorists are arrested, they must be judged according principees of defense.

      Let us imagine an authoritarian adminsitration coming in power. This law allows him to jail his political ennemies without much recourse by naming them ennemies of America .
      Last edited by Morgan Kane; 10-18-2006, 11:10 AM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Guantanamo Bay (or 'Camp X-Ray') is undoubtably one of the most grevious stains on Western Democracy's character. It's not just the interminable detainment of suspects without charge that offends, but also the cynicism involved in setting up the camp outside the normal boundaries of the US judicial system. It's like a unsubtle acknowledgement that what is happening is fundementally wrong because if it was all right then the camp could be set up on the US mainland.

        It basically erodes any semblance that Western Democracy is in anyway better than any other ideological belief system. The moral high-ground may not count for much in the real world, but by golly, the West stepped off it and threw it away when they opened the gates of Camp X-Ray.
        _"For an eternity Allard was alone in an icy limbo where all the colours were bright and sharp and comfortless.
        _For another eternity Allard swam through seas without end, all green and cool and deep, where distorted creatures drifted, sometimes attacking him.
        _And then, at last, he had reached the real world – the world he had created, where he was God and could create or destroy whatever he wished.
        _He was supremely powerful. He told planets to destroy themselves, and they did. He created suns. Beautiful women flocked to be his. Of all men, he was the mightiest. Of all gods, he was the greatest."

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by TheAdlerian
          The point behind keeping many of the people in Guantanamo is to remove them from the loop of terrorists back home. A good five to ten years in jail and they won't know who's what when they get back home.
          It has to be proven that the Guantanamo detainees are terrorists before this can be accepted as a legitimate course of action. So far, that is largely not the case.
          The name that can be named is not the true name.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Kamelion
            It has to be proven that the Guantanamo detainees are terrorists before this can be accepted as a legitimate course of action. So far, that is largely not the case.
            Exactly, the absence of any legal process in which evidence is weighed and a captive can defend himself is one of the severest injuries of the most fundamental rules that define our Western Culture. Furthermore it increases the frustration and furor of people and nations opposing the US, and it seems likely the use of violence gradually appears more like a "liberation struggle" than "terrorism" even to those who initially opposed such methods. Therefore, in a way, the "elements of moderation" also stay locked away.
            I feel very ashamed that I cannot justify Guantanamo in discussions, and only feebly say "not all Americans are like that".
            Last edited by L'Etranger; 10-18-2006, 11:30 PM.
            Google ergo sum

            Comment


            • #7
              I have always been under the impression that Guantanamo Bay is very similar to a P.O.W. camp of WW2. Wouldn’t the whole detainment process then be considered as a retaliation to the attacks on the World Trade Center on 9/11 which have been construed as a declaration of War/Jihad? There has never been a determination of guilt or innocence between two nations at war ergo the death of non-combatant civilians. The whole thing is a rotting, stinking, vile, putrid mess starting with Alqueda wanting all infidels off of the middle east soils of the prophet Mohammed. Can you imagine the catastrophic dilemma that would ensue if the West ejected all of her population of mideast decent from the soils of the almighty Thunderbird.
              The only thing that I can compare the mechanics of Guantanamo to is a teacher giving a whole class detention until the person that shot a spitball at her back confesses to the dastardly deed.

              Comment


              • #8
                Rather than being similar to a POW camp, Guantanamo bay has more in common with a detention centre or concentration camp, in that the USA has been less than discriminating in who is imprisoned there. The use of torture and abuses of human rights (the Bush administration's laughable protestations that "torture-lite" is not really torture notwithstanding) in order to extract information from detainees makes such comparisons all more apt. I am painfully reminded of victims of similar procedures in places like Omarska and Keraterm in the former Yugoslavia, who were only too happy to sign whatever was put in front of them after lengthy "informative interviews" (as they were euphemistically called).

                Of course, we can be thankful that abuses at Guantanamo or Abu Ghraib have never reached the obscene levels of terror that were seen in Omarska or Keraterm (or other locations under control of any one of the warring factions in the Yugoslavian civil wars - and doubtless many other places in the world at this very moment). However, the kinds of things that have been carried out by the Bush administration are quite enough to break the spirit of detainees without needing to resort to such extremes. There will almost certainly be guilty men amongst the innocent detained there. That's the problem with torture, though (lite or not) - once someone starts babbling to save their skin or sanity, you can never be sure that what you are hearing is the truth.
                Last edited by Kamelion; 10-19-2006, 03:38 AM.
                The name that can be named is not the true name.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Burnley

                  Wonder if they will be sending these guys to Guantanamo
                  http://www.burnleycitizen.co.uk/disp...ves_charge.php

                  "A FORMER British National Party member has been accused of possessing the largest amount of chemical explosives of its type ever found in the country."

                  Probably not.
                  http://final-frame-final.blogspot.com/

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by voilodian ghagnasdiak
                    I have always been under the impression that Guantanamo Bay is very similar to a P.O.W. camp of WW2.
                    The entire raison d'etre of Guantanamo Bay is that the 'guests' are most definitely not Prisoners of War - because if they were so classified they would come under the edicts of the Geneva Convention and have level of judicial protection. Instead the US Army classifies them as 'Illegal Enemy Combatants' (or some such euphemism) on the grounds that often they weren't 'in uniform' when captured.
                    _"For an eternity Allard was alone in an icy limbo where all the colours were bright and sharp and comfortless.
                    _For another eternity Allard swam through seas without end, all green and cool and deep, where distorted creatures drifted, sometimes attacking him.
                    _And then, at last, he had reached the real world – the world he had created, where he was God and could create or destroy whatever he wished.
                    _He was supremely powerful. He told planets to destroy themselves, and they did. He created suns. Beautiful women flocked to be his. Of all men, he was the mightiest. Of all gods, he was the greatest."

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      The Geneva Convention "loophole" exploited by the Bush administration is primarily based on the fact that the detainees are alleged to be members of an illegal group that started a war against the USA. Because Al-Qaeda is not a state, it cannot legally declare war on anyone, and so its members are not protected by the Geneva Conventions. I do recall the uniform issue being raised, but I'm pretty sure that the GC allows for the protection of non-uniformed militia members (for example), so long as they are part of a state (although I may have mis-remembered this, it has been a year or two since I read the GC in detail). As the alleged Al-Qaeda fighters aren't members of a warring state, they are engaged in an illegal conflict and so supposedly fall outside the remit of the GC. Doublespeak of the worst kind, which also quite ignores other international standards of human rights unrelated to the GC.
                      The name that can be named is not the true name.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        It gets better...

                        The new bill lets US citizens be detained.

                        This administration is incredible. What a nightmare. The way the Patriot Act was pushed through right after 9/11; their generally brazen behavior ever since. They have been so busted- Haliburton, etc. And they're not phased in the least. It makes me ill, I'm totally ashamed. It's become so obviously inhuman. It seems so obvious where all of this is going.
                        Last edited by Madrigal Rose; 10-19-2006, 05:37 AM.
                        Character, like a photograph, develops in darkness.
                        -Yousuf Karsh

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Anybody know where the facility (Camp Delta) is located on the base? Google Maps offers some very detalied views of thew base, and if someone knows the location we can have a look...

                          The boundries of the base are very clear in the satellite image. Use the zoom control and you can get remarkably close: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=e...31213&t=k&om=1

                          Here's a report on Delta: http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...-bay_delta.htm



                          Last edited by nalpak retrac; 10-19-2006, 06:31 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I continue to be amazed how the US can have a military base on Cuba in the first place. I mean, it's not like they're bosom buddies, is it? Does anyone know how the base came to be there in the first place?
                            _"For an eternity Allard was alone in an icy limbo where all the colours were bright and sharp and comfortless.
                            _For another eternity Allard swam through seas without end, all green and cool and deep, where distorted creatures drifted, sometimes attacking him.
                            _And then, at last, he had reached the real world – the world he had created, where he was God and could create or destroy whatever he wished.
                            _He was supremely powerful. He told planets to destroy themselves, and they did. He created suns. Beautiful women flocked to be his. Of all men, he was the mightiest. Of all gods, he was the greatest."

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by David Mosley
                              The entire raison d'etre of Guantanamo Bay is that the 'guests' are most definitely not Prisoners of War - because if they were so classified they would come under the edicts of the Geneva Convention and have level of judicial protection. Instead the US Army classifies them as 'Illegal Enemy Combatants' (or some such euphemism) on the grounds that often they weren't 'in uniform' when captured.
                              I'd just very carefully like to remind that the N.azis already argued that summary executions of "partisans" in Russia, Poland, Italy, France and elsewhere were justifiable within the Conventions of Geneva.
                              I was hoping that a humane treatment of even of our enemies was what put us on a higher moral shelf ... that we even treat those we behold as criminals can expect a mininum of dignified treatment lest we lose our own dignity.

                              This finally is at the core ... we are soiling our own beliefs or credibility, our dignity. We, the West.
                              Google ergo sum

                              Comment

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