Schools Under Fire.

[Theocrat]

I read now that an Amish school has had a columbine incident recently.
A peaceful sect living outside the modern world. I really don't know what to think about this?

How many shootings does this make this year?
According to the article it's the 'third shooting' this week?

Any Americans who want to say something about this?

[danskmacabre]

I'm not American, but it seems ot me that if you get one type of killing, you quite often get lots of copycat killings for a while.

[Morgan Kane]

One of the consequences is that the fashion begins to come in France .....

[Madrigal Rose]

The Amish just weren't secluded enough, apparently. Not really Columbine-style, since the guy who did it really had no connection to the place- it was simply a matter of convenience.

What can one say? So often it seems to be the torment of people's internal 'demons' being taken out on the rest of the world. These events do seem to come in waves sometimes, but I can't say if it's happening any more frequently. I don't watch the news on TV anymore because I detest the attempt at manipulation of our emotions- the fearmongering and so forth, but I can imagine what that approach is like. I stick to NPR/PRI, just so I can retain what's left of my own sanity

[Kamelion]

I am continually baffled by US gun laws. I know that it's sticky subject with plenty of political complications and a huge pro-gun lobby, but you'd think that somewhere along the line it would start to be clear that the ease of getting hold of guns is a large part of the problem. My impression is that changing gun laws is something of a taboo subject that you can't really address in the USA, so connected is it to long-standing traditions of the constitutional right to bear arms.

Are there any US posters who would like to educate me on this matter? From where I am standing, it seems pretty obvious but I have a feeling that it's not seen as so cut-and-dried over in the US.

[johneffay]

One of the things I can't wrap my head round is the guy's inventory. Ignoring, the restraining devices, lubricants, etc. We get this:

Investigations are under way to establish when and where Roberts got the pistol, rifle, shotgun and 600 rounds of ammunition that he had with him.

How could the guy walk? Even without the guns, 600 rounds of ammo must way a phenomenal amount.

[Theocrat]

I am continually baffled by US gun laws. I know that it's sticky subject with plenty of political complications and a huge pro-gun lobby, but you'd think that somewhere along the line it would start to be clear that the ease of getting hold of guns is a large part of the problem. My impression is that changing gun laws is something of a taboo subject that you can't really address in the USA, so connected is it to long-standing traditions of the constitutional right to bear arms.

Are there any US posters who would like to educate me on this matter? From where I am standing, it seems pretty obvious but I have a feeling that it's not seen as so cut-and-dried over in the US.

Well here in Sweden, they claim that the same kind of people burn down buildings instead. But it's more easier and direct with a gun. Thats what makes it so much more worse for innocent people.

They should start with harder gun control in the US.
Either that or start a civil war and kick out congress, or something, I mean with all the guns floating around. *just kidding btw*

[lemec]

I was truly sick when when I saw the news on tv.

I thought I was more desensitised by now, but certain things like this really bother me.

That's my old stomping ground. I used to go eat in Lancaster at a place that had long picnic tables in a big hall and everyone ate like they were one big family. They brought the food out and you pass the plates and bowls around.
I love it there. I thought about moving between there and Gettysburg some day, I probably still will get there again. I almost went there five years ago.

The difference from this and other school shootings is that this is an older man, not a student, not even part of the community and was there for se.xu.al,paed.oph.ile reasons, not only just to kill. It seems an endless cycle, a victim growing up and becoming the murderer,but that is no excuse. The man obviously led a semi-normal life, and there is no reason in the world for him to harm children and children so young.

I just don't know why someone did not see him coming,holding all those weapons, and rush him tackle him or something, I know it is not expected, but some adults should have been around to try something, but I guess when the adults are older and live in peace, or the younger adults not thinking they would be in such a situation,there is not much they can do, but get the police as soon as possible.

It just proves that this can happen anywhere and at any time, we just can not predict when someone is going to go insane, or plan suicide, or carry out their sick desires.

I really don't see anything that would have prevented this, he did not really need his guns to go kill children or harm them, it seems to me that he was going to do murder any way he can.

We need to learn to confront people like this, they are cowards and cave in right away as soon as someone opposes them, he did not use his 600 rounds of ammunition against the police, they showed up and he panicked, if only someone could have blocked his way before he could do anything.

I don't know the answer, I just know that people like that do not try to harm anyone who will try to fight back.

[Jerry Cornelius]

Some factors to consider:

In a country of (this month) 300 million people there are going to be a few nuts.

Altogether globalization, entertainment media, the breakdown of the family, the breakdown of community, the breakdown of religion, and the breakdown of the traditional stable career path are forcing the country through a crisis. It will only get worse as the population increases and more civic, economic and cultural infrastructure is torn down.


People are less connected to each other than they used to be, more self-absorbed.

The gun issue is indeed a sticky one. The second amendment was written for a different kind of population--middle class, Protestant, hard working, often self-employed, grounded in a religion that called for strict self-monitoring. It was written for a people who were not only self-reliant (effective members of communities as well as woodsmen) but who were also fully aware of the their responsibility for the outcomes of their decisions, particularly in regard to survival. In theory, the second amendment was intended to empower localities to form militias to resist any tyranny that might emerge. While the tyranny that the founders were concerned about has not fully articulated itself, certainly the empire that will make that tyranny possible has in fact emerged.


A curious issue is that many people in the United States do in fact fit the description. They in fact are capable of exercising their right responsibly. From the perspective of their cultural orientations, they in fact have a right to own firearms. The problem, however, is that there are other cultural gropus in the United States that fail to exhibit the requisite characteristics of a gun-bearing middle-class Protestant society, and the founders' notion that these rights are universal further confuses the issue.

But to return: The monsters that are committing these acts of violence are the by-products of a degenerate civilization.


And then there are those really complicated factors, which are driven by the vicissitudes of a crazy universe, and so on...

Where was this guy's wife? Surely, she knew something was wrong? His friends? Why didn't someone spot this person and stop him? The answer is self-involvement, ignoring the obvious, cowardice, and so on.....

[Doc]

One of the things I can't wrap my head round is the guy's inventory. Ignoring, the restraining devices, lubricants, etc. We get this:

Investigations are under way to establish when and where Roberts got the pistol, rifle, shotgun and 600 rounds of ammunition that he had with him.

How could the guy walk? Even without the guns, 600 rounds of ammo must way a phenomenal amount.

He kept much of it in his truck.

[Doc]

I'm truly sad over this incident (and the two others this month). Apparently these incidents happen a little more often than the news reports--"minor" incidents often don't make the wires. This scares me.

What scares me more is understanding what human beings are capable of doing. Surely this man was disturbed, but he was systematic in his thinking; he planned carefully for an occupation of the school. I'm certain there are other people walking around who are both capable of rational thought and carrying around intense emotional baggage that creates breaks in reality. To me, those people are far more scary than people who are delusional, and in some ways are even more scary than psychopaths and sociopaths.

I was thinking about what JC said about the gun issue. It is hard to argue against the idea that the US is a more violent society because we have so many guns. Most arguments against this logic are political, rather than empirical, and don't hold up to empirical scrutiny. That is not my point. I agree with JC that we are going to re-visit the amendment's spirit of protecting militas before we restrict access to guns. I'm not sure which concerns me more: thinking about the possiblities of militias or thinking about the omnipresent influence of the gun lobby.

However, I don't agree completely with the idea that people who commit acts such as these recent school shooting are solely the product of a degenerate society. I agree that American society is becoming degenerate--I see it as becoming fat and complacent like the Roman empire-- but that degeneration is but one variable in a multicausal model. I don't think it would be an overstatement to suggest that our present culture has created more opportunities for these tragedies to occur.

On a personal note, I'm sorry that this has touched you so personally, Lemec. I think we can all sympathise with the loss you feel, having a fond memory destroyed by being linked to tragedy forcibly. When we can personalize something like this, we often feel a deep sense of loss. While I'm not implying that our personal losses compare to those whose lives are fundamentally altered, these incidents make us greive differently, and for more things than people who don't have that personal connection.

Forgive my rambling. This stuff is demoralizing...

[lemec]

On a personal note, I'm sorry that this has touched you so personally, Lemec. I think we can all sympathise with the loss you feel, having a fond memory destroyed by being linked to tragedy forcibly. When we can personalize something like this, we often feel a deep sense of loss. While I'm not implying that our personal losses compare to those whose lives are fundamentally altered, these incidents make us greive differently, and for more things than people who don't have that personal connection.

Thank you, Doc.

I appreciate that.

It goes against the community's beliefs of non-violence, no war, no fighting.

It bothers me that there is always someone out there, some scum, who can't leave people in peace.

All the incidents are equally terrible though. All the crimes against small children really make me sad for all the victims.

It is another case, where the fear of punishment does not bother these jerks, they plan to kill themselves anyway, or plan to be killed by the police.

I still can't think of a solution, there is just no way to be able to protect everyone, without having them stop living their lives. I guess we all just need to watch for trouble.

Evil has reached everywhere, no matter if you live pretty much in the middle of nowhere and life your live in total peace and your ancestors lived in peace all their lives. It is another problem of the modern world.

They probably trusted that guy too, in the area, if he was a milk runner. That might be why they did not see him as an outsider. They lowered their guard.

and in the not too distant past, people never even heard of sexual assults like that and the killing of children, especially in that area.

[Reinart der Fuchs]

I can only speak for myself, though my experiences may speak for a broader audience who have similiar experiences. Guns are a part of the American's everyday life. Here are a couple of personal experiences with guns apart from guns that appear in the hands of television good and bad guys, guns in cartoons (one memorable Daffy Duck v.s. Bugs Bunny http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0045062/usercomments), toy guns and guns in the news (1997 saw 1300+ deaths by weapon fire http://www.iir.com/nygc/Municipal%20...e--weapons.htm and maybe someone can find a link to that video of the LAPD in a firefight with a gang in a fucking neighborhood):

* A cadet brought home a loaded weapon and his little brother blew himself away with it
* I shot a BB gun through a window in our backyard (under supervision)
* I was trained with an M-16 in the military (an my hearing is degernating because my drill Sgt. made me fire without my earplugs that I had unluckily lost in the sand)
* I have heard gun fire during the 4th of July and New Years
* I have handled an Israeli assault rifle, that was later used to commit suicide and then was sold to some gang members
* I have listened to multiple people brag about their weapons collections

Of all these experiences, only one person expressed the importance of keeping weapons unloaded and in weapons safe.

My greatest worry for the future within this context is the Starbucksification/Walmartification of weapon sales. The Disneyfication of weapons has already happened.

http://video.google.com/videosearch?...age=2&so=0&lr=

[Idiot_Savant]

Your first link is broken, Reinart.

[lemec]

Hello, Reinart der Fuchs,

I am sorry to learn of your hearing loss. The military should be more
responsible. It seems they get away with too many wrongs during training,
such as your example or as another example, when the intructors push people far beyond exhaustion.

It is just baffling to me, that people can not be careful when it comes to guns. It makes no sense, that a person can do everything else in their lives and do it safely, but when it comes to a gun they suddenly become reckless.

Don't you think that people are actually losing interest in guns for the most part? I mean guns for legitimate reasons, hunting,sports, self protection in their home.

I don't know what the numbers would be, but it seems in this modern society people are spending their money on everything else that they use everyday, electronics,tools for work,vacation stuff, rather than buying a gun that will just sit in the drawer for 40 years.

Video of parents teaching children how to shoot or teaching them wrong things and the wrong behavior are a minority, in my opinion. In the 80's, I read in magazines all the time about those shoots in Georgia and places like that, where they blew up cars and shot machine guns from jeeps etc. It is not anything new. I used to see young children fire guns in sporting clubs.
Videos like that, do not come as a surprise to me. I am not saying that they are in error or not, just not a surprise. Either way, those aren't the people who are involved in gang shootings,murder and bank robberies, but they are
inconsiderate to the rest of the world. I did not watch these links, but I have seen images like thm before.

At one time they banned alot of those cartoons that had guns in them, or
violence.

It is still the people that we have to watch out for, when someone turns evil and stops caring about the rules, they are going to do great harm.

The police know who most of the gangs are, know who is in them, know they are armed, but they will not disarm them! They have illegal guns, they should all be arrested. Anyone else who breaks the law, goes to jail. The police just let the gangs and drug dealers exist. Another case of people who only confront the innocent or the weak. They are afraid to go after the real criminals, the laws are already on the books, enforce them. Notice, they arrest people all the time who ar on a peaceful demonstration, an unarmed demonstation. They sure busted enough innocent heads openin the 60's. now the cops can't go after a few teenagers who think they are hard? -ridiculous.

Same goes with the s.e.x of.fen.ders, we need to watch for the warning signs, if sombody tries something, they must be stopped, if they have illegal weapons, take them away. In some cases there are no warning signs, or the people around them feel they would not go that far. From now on, though, there should be no tolerance, if they are cought in an illegal act, especially an act that is the first stepping point to lead to more abuse and eventually to killing.

I'm not saying to be thought and behaviour police, just saying if someone commits a s.ex. crime, it must be reported and action must be taken, you keep them locked up forever if necessary, if this man in the Amish country, did abuse a child 20 years ago, he should have been stopped then, if someone knew about the incident, (other than the victim.)

We as a society, need to learn quick to be tough on these offenders, or we are going to see it again and again and again. There will probably be at least four more school shootings or highly publicized abuses. Each year, there will be more and more of his crap, people are slow to take action to prevent it.
Most politicians don't want to stop it, it's an issue then can use again and again to stay in office. If their children were the ones in danger, you can guarantee problems like this would end overnight. They can come up with money for everything else in this country, except the real important things which are needed. About every little detail of the inocent citizen is recorded somewhere, but we still can't stop the crimminals from hurting people. Everything I do, requires a photo ID, and a quick check can tell everyone my personal information and business, but try to find out if these people are breaking the law and they can't. I just don't know how they live outside the system. It is infuriating to think that people can get away with things like this, and I do mean get away, beause they knew, reasoned it out, that they can do this,this,this and that before they have to kill themselves. They do it, then they are gone from this world, and the poor victims contine to have to suffer. Same with september 11th, really, those men killed and did what they wanted to do then they also wanted to die, they accomplished all their goals, so, in a sense, I hate to say it, but, they got away with murder. UBL was never caught, so he got away with it, everyone gets away with it, that is why we have so much crime of this nature, they know they can get their vile jollies in before they are killed themselves. They are sick and demented, the only way cut down on the problem is to watch for behavior that leads up to something like this, and that is no real clue either, unless they get caught right before the act, like I said earlier. But, this is all another subject.

There is no realy way to discover what "triggers" what in a person. Being unhappy with life, sure is one motive,though. I have no idea what the other factors might be. This is a problem that people need to solve in the present, not leave it for people to study in the future,as in a diddrent time period, different motives will cause the wrong behavior.

I don't think it's what we watch and view as a society that might degrade some of us into monsters, but how we are taught to live and how we interpret
things in life and our environment, and how to control our emotions and we need to be taught as children what is right and wrong and taught how to know what is appropriate and what is not. -and how to mix all that so it lines up properly with our desires and emotions. People need to be shown that it is wrong to get a thrill at killing or hurting someone else.

It is a very complex world that we made for ourselves, maybe to complex that
certain people can not understand or cope with a life with so many rules,so many economic levels,so many tensions and hierarchy issues.

I apologize for being a rambling man again, I thought I'd let my emotions take hold of this comment and see how it turned out.

Thanks Reinart!

Thanks Friends!

Sincerely,


-Lemec