the Pope and Islam :

[Morgan Kane]

The pope has criticised Islam citing an ancient byzantean emperor, attacking it for two reasons

- Islam has brought to humankind only bad things, violence

- Islam negates reason

and wants to promote evangelisation against wrongs done by atheism ......

1) The first point is subject to debate, even if jerks tried immediately to make him right in posing bombs.

As every religious text, coran is ambiguous about violence.

2) Chrisitanism has used violence in many occasion against unbelieversa dn heretics

3 ) For a religious man , either reason doens not go against faith or is wrong.

4 ) Tolerance is not a word of the vocabulary of integrist. Freedom means the right to criticize ......

[Doc]

I read about this a bit. Apparently, even the Pope has to apologize at times. He was really taken to task about this, and issued a formal apology. Apology or not, it is disturbing that he said those things in the first place. Perhaps he will be calling for a new Crusade soon. And then apologize when people get killed.

[David Mosley]

Apparently, even the Pope has to apologize at times.

Huh? Isn't the Pope supposed to be infallible?

[johneffay]

Huh? Isn't the Pope supposed to be infallible?

Only when issuing official Papal messages from the chair or whatever. Not when he is addressing his old university.

That paper is an incredibly sophisticated bit of work. It's worth reading in full if you have a taste for such things. You can find a link to a .pdf of it on this page:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5348456.stm
Given the level of depth and extremely subtle way he manages to imply that, unlike Christianity, Islam and rationality are incompatible, and the Pope's proven track record as a hard-liner, I find it hard to believe he didn't know exactly what he was doing and all those effigy burning, church looting, nun murdering Muslims have fallen into his trap.

[Morgan Kane]

It was very hypocrite ...... he cited the old emperor and went on and now he says that he was only citing .......

But the reactions of islamists are exagerated ........ Anybody, even thepope, has freedom of speech to criticize religions .

[Groakes]

The irony of some of the responses from some Islamic quarters would be quite amusing if the whole thing wasn't so tragic....

"Stop saying we are violent or we will kill you"

The Pope obviously needs new spin doctors - someone from Exxon or Union Carbide/Dow Chemicals should do nicely. When the head of the Catholic church singles out another faith for criticism for spreading its tenets by the sword AND doesn't mention its own glorious past in South America (not to mention the Wars of Religion throughout Europe, the Crusades, etc etc etc) he is obviously in need of a good crisis management team....

Still when you have two past-their-use-by-date patriarchies facing each other off what do you expect?

[Jerry Cornelius]

Strong Words

I find it rather hard to accept these irate fundamentalist Johnnies calling for executions and so on.... Very boring.

Ahem! If the problem persists I shall write a forceful letter to The Times!

What do we make of it?



THe Pope Must Die, says Muslim
18.09.06



A notorious Muslim extremist told a demonstration in London yesterday that the Pope should face execution.

Anjem Choudary said those who insulted Islam would be "subject to capital punishment".

His remarks came during a protest outside Westminster Cathedral on a day that worldwide anger among Muslim hardliners towards Pope Benedict XVI appeared to deepen.

The pontiff yesterday apologised for causing offence during a lecture last week. Quoting a medieval emperor, his words were taken to mean that he called the prophet Mohammed "evil and inhuman".

He insisted he was "deeply sorry" but his humbling words did not go far enough to silence all his critics or quell the violence and anger he has triggered.

A nun was shot dead in Somalia by Islamic gunmen and churches came under attack in Palestine.

Choudary's appeal for the death of Pope Benedict was the second time he has been linked with apparent incitement to murder within a year.
The 39-year-old lawyer organised demonstrations against the publication of cartoons of Mohammed in February in Denmark. Protesters carried placards declaring "Behead Those Who Insult Islam".

Yesterday he said: "The Muslims take their religion very seriously and non-Muslims must appreciate that and that must also understand that there may be serious consequences if you insult Islam and the prophet.
"Whoever insults the message of Mohammed is going to be subject to capital punishment."

He added: "I am here have a peaceful demonstration. But there may be people in Italy or other parts of the world who would carry that out.
"I think that warning needs to be understood by all people who want to insult Islam and want to insult the prophet of Islam."

As well as placards attacking the Pope such as "Pope go to Hell", his followers outside the country's principal Roman Catholic church also waved slogans aimed at offending the sentiments of Christians such as "Jesus is the slave of Allah".

A Scotland Yard spokesman said of his comments: "We have had no complaints about this. There were around 100 people at the demonstration. It passed off peacefully and there were no arrests."
Larger Islamic groups in Britain said they accepted the Pope's apology. Inayat Bunglawala of the Muslim Council of Britain said: "The Vatican has moved quickly to deal with the hurt and we accept that.
"It was something that should never have happened - words of that nature were always likely to cause dismay - and we believe some of the Pope's advisers may have been at fault over his speech."
Yesterday's sermon by the Pope was the first time a pontiff has publicly said sorry.

He said he regretted Muslim reaction to his speech and stressed that the quotation did not reflect his personal opinion. Anger and violence - including attacks on seven churches in the West Bank and Gaza - have characterised one of the biggest international crises involving the Vatican in decades.

The Pope appeared determined to move quickly to try to defuse the anger but the fury of many radicals was unabated last night and there were fears for his safety.

Iraqi jihadists issued a video of a scimitar slicing a cross in two, intercut with images of Benedict and the burning Twin Towers.

The website run in the name of the Mujahedeen Army, used by extremist groups who have claimed responsibility for attacks in Iraq, was addressed to "You dog of Rome" and threatened to "shake your thrones and break your crosses in your home".

In a reference to suicide bombing, it said: "We swear to God to send you people who adore death as much as you adore life."

The threat of violence against Catholics and Christians was emphasised by the murder of an Italian nun in Somalia. Sister Leonella, 66, was shot as she walked from the children's hospital where she worked to her house in Mogadishu, a city recently taken over by an Islamic government.
A Vatican spokesman said he feared her death was "the fruit of violence and irrationality arising from the current situation".

Father Frederico Lombardi said he hoped it was an isolated event. "We are worried about this wave of hatred and hope it doesn't have any grave consequences for the Church around the world," he said.

The murder suggested that extremists are determined to use the Pope's embarrassment as an excuse for violence.

In Turkey, state minister Mehmet Aydin said the Pope seemed to be saying he was sorry for the outrage but not necessarily for his remarks.
"You either have to say this, 'I'm sorry' in a proper way or not say it at all," he told reporters in Istanbul.

There were fierce denunciations of the pontiff from Iran. The English-language Tehran Times called his lecture in Bavaria last week "code words for a new crusade".

The powerful cleric Ahmad Khatami told theological students in the holy city of Qom: The "Pope should fall on his knees in front of a senior Muslim cleric and try to understand Islam."

But the Turkish government signalled it was content and that the Pope's visit to the country in November can go ahead.

In his sermon yesterday at the Papal summer residence of Castel Gandolfo outside Rome, Benedict spoke amid strengthened security.

He said: "I am deeply sorry for the reactions in some countries to a few passages of my address at the University of Regensburg, which were considered offensive to the sensibility of Muslims.

"These in fact were a quotation from a medieval text, which do not in any way express my personal thought. I hope this serves to appease hearts and to clarify the true meaning of my address."

No other Pope is thought to have made such an apology.

Source: http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/a...lim/article.do

[Reinart der Fuchs]

Sounds like a lunatic fringe.

[L'Etranger]

I think that there are those who would like a "final showdown" between East and West. These warmongers have gained considerable influence and go about it expertly. Any minimal incidence will serve as a pretext to fuel their fires.

MM wrote a few years ago: Simple ideas attract those of us baffled by the world's complexities and paradoxes, but real simplification results in a dumbed down and dysfunctional model of the world. It simply falls apart on us."
Yes, but it seems to work over and over again. Finding solutions, arranging themselves with the neighbour or opponent etc affords too much intellect and isn't sexy. Better to resort to fighting. What sick minds. And they are there on the far end of either side.
Did I say "far ends"? I wonder.

[Morgan Kane]

This is madness .....

From the Pope a great hypocrisy : he quotes a mediaval text criticising Islam and goes on about the relationship beetwen Faith and reason .....

Then later, he says that the medieval text does not reflects his thinking !

But :

- religion, even islam can be criticized : perfection is not in this world

- Even the pope has the right to criticize a religion

-faith and reason are not compatible ..... even christianism !

[Muroc]

Don't know what all the fuss is about ... at the risk of offending other people's religious beliefs, I've gotta say you've all got it wrong. Any sane and logical thinking person knows that the Universe was created when it was sneezed into existence by a being called the Great Green Arkleseizure .

Now I'll crawl back under my rock and await "The Coming of the Great White Handkerchief". Ahhchoo.

[johneffay]

I've merged the 'Strong Words' thread from the Q&A into this discussion so that we don;t end up repeating ourselves in two places.

[Mikey_C]

It seems like we are re-living the Middle Ages. But I believe in free speech - even for the Pope. It seems he's been out-medievaled by some of his "critics". I hate this "let's show who can be the most offended on behalf of the Supreme Being" b*ll*cks. I don't think we should be intimidated by it at all. Let God / Allah / Whatever do He / She / It's own smiting for a change. Otherwise us atheists will riot every time a pope / mullah opens their stupid mouth!

Sorry - too much attitude in that post, not enough reasoning. But i trust people will appreciate where I'm coming from.

[Jerry Cornelius]

Well, personally I don't think the pope said or did anything that was wrong. I've certainly said much worse things about various religions before--including my own. Such criticisms are part of modern civilization, and they are to be responded to appropriately. They are to be countered with sober and calm argumentation, or they are to be ignored. Clearly, calling for the death of the pope and the violent statements and the uproar over this issue in the fundamentalist muslim countries and communities is inappropriate and is incompatible with the modern world.

The question remains: did the pope deliberately seek to create a raction?

If so, why would he do so? Not to provoke violence, but perhaps to "test the waters"--to see if, in fact, there was a large, violent and irrational anti-western movment in the Middle East, South Asia (and in Europe)? It would seem the answer is "yes." What the pope says or said is not very important to me--I could care less. Actually, I am a protestant, so you know how I feel about his ideas. However, the reaction coming from the mid east is certainly indicative of something that needs to be watched carefully.

If he did not seek to expose something, then he certainly is an inept person and his staff is stupid--which I doubt.

The modern world is the issue, as well as our commitmemnt to what the modern world means in terms of freedom, the treatment of women and the weak, equal rights, equal protection, human rights, the distribution of wealth, and so on.

The pope made these statements at a theological conference. The context and the importance of what he had to say was academic. The venue and, quite frankly, the quote (which he disagreed with, by the way) are to be tolerated in our system. If there are people--the leaders of nations and pan-national movements--who are ready to react with violent words and promises, well, I feel the onus is upon them. Again, if the quotation of the words of an emperor who has been dead 1000 years (moreover, carefully qualified quotation) can create the reaction it has--I am rather curious about just who these people are and what thery are capable of? And I am not going to let my reservations about the pope or Catholicism (remember, I am a protestant, and at its roots the protestant response to the pope was not simply critical, but was violent, and it was the wellspring, moreover, of all subsequent liberal revolution in the West). Again, as a protestant, my criticisms are certainly as committed to the advancement of peace as the criticisms coming from secular commentators. Real peace. Real freedom. Again, I'd say the pope is, at end of the day, not the issue, but rather the issue is the mounting Islamo-something-movment out there. The issue is theocratic power structures and fundamentlaist dictators and brain-washed followers. Again, if you can't quote a 1000 year old emperor without creating the uproar it has, then modern civilization (and the west) is in trouble.

Just exactly what was it the pope said that was so bad?

As for the pope's little experiment fueling the fire?

Well, shame on the pope. I've always been circumspect about Catholicism as well as all authoritarian religions. This is another occasion to be circumspect. But, meanwhile, what about these lunatics calling for--angrily demanding--apologies, and what about these calls for violence?

And what about that dead nun, and the genocide committed against Africans and Christians in North Africa?

Did the nun, do the Africans, do the Christians deserve to die?

[Mikey_C]

Al-Jazeera's comment. Funny to see a page in Arabic and understand it perfectly!