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U.S. sports protests

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  • U.S. sports protests

    I have so many feelings about the most recent protests that began with the NBA's Milwaukee Bucks. I admire the people who are willing to endanger their own livelihoods to raise awareness and express outrage over another instance of seemingly avoidable police violence inflicted on an African-American man. I admire people who have a platform and use it to promote justice, and I certainly agree with their message. I wonder if they are only reaching people who already agree with them, and only alienating the people who do not (many of whom already have pre-conceived ideas about the players and league). Does it become righteous virtue signalling on a massive scale that just causes the cynics to say "I told you so?" I think it is worth it regardless, but it raises a whole host of issues that interest me. Just putting it out there if others have thoughts.

  • #2
    If nothing else I'm just glad it disrupts the lives of people who are either ignorant of the situation or those who are so deluded as to believe there is no problem at all. The only people I see complaining about these protests are the assholes who think there isn't systemic racism and injustice to fight. And let's be clear, this was an issue before. 2020 didn't just invent this problem because it's a hellish year anyway. But this shit-show is off the rails and anyone who isn't outraged has their head in the sand.

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    • #3
      That’s pretty much how I feel. I’ve read a few pieces of commentary arguing that interrupting people’s entertainment and telling them to wake up to the world was a really strong statement. Maybe more powerful is the idea that sports are going to be political as long as there is racial injustice. If you don’t want to acknowledge that you need to give up on sports.

      thanks for sharing! It’s good to see you here again.

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      • #4
        I saw some pretty powerful stuff from some pretty sincere seeming people.

        I don't think it matters if the message doesn't get through to those who refuse to hear it. It's not for them.

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        • #5
          I think it does. Shoving it the faces of people who don't care serves as a reminder that people other than them DO care. And it might make them a little less bold when speaking their racist ignorant minds.

          My view is probably colored by being a leftist in the Midwest where you hear bigoted shit all the time.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Thanos Shadowsage View Post
            I think it does. Shoving it the faces of people who don't care serves as a reminder that people other than them DO care. And it might make them a little less bold when speaking their racist ignorant minds.

            My view is probably colored by being a leftist in the Midwest where you hear bigoted shit all the time.
            Point taken.

            I'm from north of the 49th, but, among other things, I take notice when John Carlos speaks up.

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            • #7
              I hope it changes a few minds, or maybe emboldens some quiet people to become more vocal allies. LeBron James has 93 million twitter followers, and I’m certain that many of them want him to “shut up and dribble” like idiot Laura Ingram. But maybe some of them say now is the time to say something.

              I’m also ready to believe that I’m naive. I’m still waiting on the tooth fairy to deliver on that last molar that came out... 😂

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              • #8
                Being entrenched in the South, I hear so much negativity from those around me. I am a fairly left leaning citizen, yet I am fascinated by other peoples views. I let people talk and people feel comfortable expressing all sorts of things to me. I will not argue with people whose knowledge is based on facebook posts and YouTube conspiracies, however I am very outspoken when it comes to outright bigoted assholes.

                I have seen people turn against Nascar and sports teams that take a social stance. I live in East TN. Dolly Parton is pretty much a folk hero in these parts. When she recently made a statement supporting awareness of violence against African Americans I heard people who always spoke highly of her immediately turn against her. It is disheartening to say the least. There is so much denial. It doesn’t matter who takes a stand to some people. They will never question their own views. Anyone who doesn’t agree is seen as the enemy. People see it as their own heroes are turning against them. Some people do not have the capacity to reevaluate and make changes within themselves.
                I('d) tell you all, we are young at the end of this cycle, and there may be no rest even when we are done.- Devin Townsend

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Navigator View Post
                  I live in East TN. Dolly Parton is pretty much a folk hero in these parts. When she recently made a statement supporting awareness of violence against African Americans I heard people who always spoke highly of her immediately turn against her. It is disheartening to say the least. There is so much denial. It doesn’t matter who takes a stand to some people. They will never question their own views. Anyone who doesn’t agree is seen as the enemy. People see it as their own heroes are turning against them. Some people do not have the capacity to reevaluate and make changes within themselves.
                  Dolly is basically a Saint in TN. And from what I understand its for good reason. But again, I see your comments as only positive. Take away their heroes. Take away anyone they can identify with in the media. Isolate the bigots. Fuck'em. If they don't change their kids will.

                  Sorry if my language is too strong. I just feel strongly about this issue.
                  Last edited by Thanos Shadowsage; 08-30-2020, 10:22 AM.

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                  • #10
                    Like Doc, I applaud and celebrate anyone who is willing to stake their own security to raise awareness of important issues. Regarding this particular protest I really don't have any strong feelings about it largely because professional sports hold very little interest for me and NBA least of all. If they want to "strike" over the issue, good for them but I really don't care if all sports cease and probably won't notice when they come back if at all.

                    As for the topic of their protest--my feelings on the issue are rather complex. The systemic problems do not have their root with the Police and I think it is a shame that the popular narrative has stopped there. Much of our Criminal Justice system, such as it is, is built around repression of minority groups and the Police have unfortunately been placed in the position of having to enforce these terrible laws. Pile atop it the real differences between the apparently dominant Police-friendly white-suburban culture and black American subculture where the Police have traditionally been taught to be the enemy (with basis in historical truth) and you can see how trouble arises. There are real problems with racism in our criminal justice system and the Police have evolved to accentuate the problem in some ways but I take issue with anyone who thinks the "police are the problem" because the data do not bear it out (more on that, if you're interested). Politicizing the issue and the media--traditional and social--have fomented the strife through emotional manipulation and sensationalism. Policing in the US needs reform, without a doubt, but it will never affect positive change until the racist structure of our laws are changed and even then it will take generations for the required cultural change among society to improve the perception of Police/Public interactions.

                    (Full disclosure here: I was raised in a Law Enforcement family and have been surrounded by it at the highest levels most of my life; not just working cops but LEOs responsible for policy, standards, and training. I understand this brings a totally different perspective and even some bias to my view of the larger situation but it is a bias of consideration tempered by fact rather than one of emotional reaction--for example, I refuse to pass personal judgement on a situation until the facts are known and investigations complete.).
                    "In omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro"
                    --Thomas a Kempis

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                    • #11
                      I agree with you for the most part EverKing but a few things have given me pause. If you haven't seen it yourself already I highly recommend John Oliver's recent video on the police. In particular I thought his take on the creation of the Police as we know it was interesting.



                      I fully support the idea of "defunding" the police in favor of creating other organizations to handle non-violent emergencies and law enforcement. In most cases a highway patrolman is not going to need a firearm. A lot of what the police get called in for don't require the threat of lethal force.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Thanos Shadowsage View Post

                        Dolly is basically a Saint in TN. And from what I understand its for good reason. But again, I see your comments as only positive. Take away their heroes. Take away anyone they can identify with in the media. Isolate the bigots. Fuck'em. If they don't change their kids will.

                        Sorry if my language is too strong. I just feel strongly about this issue.
                        Being polite hasn’t really changed anything. It’s probably time for pricklier language. Journalists won’t even call obvious racism racism, afraid to offend anyone (including the racists).

                        We can’t confront issues when people are afraid to name them. Strange that naming the offenses offends some people more than all of your “fuck”s ever could.

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                        • #13
                          Again, not disagreeing at all about the institutional and systemic bias built into the entire criminal justice system from its very foundations--what I was pointing out was that the popular reaction has been strictly against the Police officers rather than against the institutions. I have also long distrusted the increasing militarization of the Police force and we are seeing more and more how nothing good can come of it. Even that militarization though was reactionary (or a result of Federal policy shuffling military budgets by "sharing" equipment with law enforcement, etc).

                          As for the idea that a highway patrolman not needing a firearm: well, the two most dangerous activities Law Enforcement Officers undertake is knocking on (and entering) a door and approaching a vehicle on the road. The vast, vast, majority of LEOs will never fire their weapons in the line of duty (although that trend has been shifting in the past two decades it seems) but generally when the weapon is needed it is needed immediately. I understand the sentiment of disarming LEOs but the reality is that until the entire institution supporting them is completely rebuilt and the culture of hate shifts to one of mutual trust we cannot safely remove the final tool they have to try to ensure they or others can get home safe.

                          I look at some of the recent officer involved shootings (for which we actually know what happened) and related deaths in police custody and what stands out to me is the deep running culture of fear that both the police and citizenry are operating in. This mutual fear has created the environments needed for these tragedies to occur. The most recent in Kenosha, WI is prime example of this from what we know so far.

                          Again, I am not trying to blindly defend law enforcement because, God knows, they have f***'ed the pooch on many of these cases and many of those individuals involved should have been kicked off the Dept. years ago (here we can blame the unions and other protectionist institutions). I am just trying, perhaps poorly, to express the problem I have with the vitriolic anti-Police messages currently going around and how much of the popular argument either misses the larger issue or is built on fallacy.
                          "In omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro"
                          --Thomas a Kempis

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by EverKing View Post

                            (Full disclosure here: I was raised in a Law Enforcement family and have been surrounded by it at the highest levels most of my life; not just working cops but LEOs responsible for policy, standards, and training. I understand this brings a totally different perspective and even some bias to my view of the larger situation but it is a bias of consideration tempered by fact rather than one of emotional reaction--for example, I refuse to pass personal judgement on a situation until the facts are known and investigations complete.).
                            I work with local law enforcement fairly regularly and have taught several dozen people involved in law enforcement at all levels. Most people go into law enforcement do it for all of the right reasons. Some of the finest humans I know are career cops.

                            There are more than a few bad apples, as well. I don’t want to minimize them, but the bigger problems are systemic. There are problematic issues in the entire justice system, in law enforcement, and policing that perpetuate systemic injustice, and are intertwined with broader inequalities. Blaming cops is easy. Granted, the “bad apples” are often enabled and rewarded by the malignancy in some systems. But we can be critical of the systemic issue without simply blaming cops, and without oversimplifying the issue as the problem of a few bad cops (who should always be called out).

                            A few bad cops certainly exacerbate systemic inequalities, but blaming cops alone is a distraction in many ways. Yes, the consequences of pervasive inequalities colliding with law enforcement are dramatic, dire, and sometimes fatal (and of course I would never minimize them). but the bigger problem is the pervasive racism and unequal distribution of opportunity that contemporary policing collide with. We always need to remember the broader injustice that is the real driver here.

                            excuse my semi-rant. 😂

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Thanos Shadowsage View Post

                              I fully support the idea of "defunding" the police in favor of creating other organizations to handle non-violent emergencies and law enforcement. In most cases a highway patrolman is not going to need a firearm. A lot of what the police get called in for don't require the threat of lethal force.
                              We often expect local police to be counselors, social
                              workers, and teachers. Let’s take the money funding the police’s military grade assault equipment and pay more counselors, social workers, and teachers who are trained to do those jobs.

                              Comment

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