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Cultural differences, and similarities and the simple country life.

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  • Cultural differences, and similarities and the simple country life.

    I have inadvertently suggested a good topic and I take the liberty of quoting something written by Heresiologist

    Originally posted by Heresiologist View Post

    Regarding your culture, it is different. Significantly so, I think. That's all.

    The same goes for myself and I live in British Columbia and one of my grandmother's was very English having gotten it from her supercalifragilistically English father (originally from some Hobbitonesque village in the Lake District, if I remember right) who, from what I've been told, was a quintessential English gentleman whose word was his bond and who felt it was his gentleman's duty to volunteer for every mission that came up during his time in the trenches in WW1--an experience, incidentally, that gave him nightmares for the rest of his life and which, in some expression of English stiff upper lippedness, only ever led to him pacing about the garden in the dark, vigorously puffing his pipe.

    .
    The country cities of the state of SP are basically a product of Italian and Portuguese settlers ( I would even mention Japanese, Spanish, Lebanese too ) so growing up in such an environment made me extremely surprised about how similar the lives of my people resonated to the ones in the shire. Not that we smoked pipes and enjoyed a good cup of tea with biscuits, although we have our version called "coffee and tapioca powder biscuits and distasteful corn cake", but the simple life and manners.

    When Tolkien describes the people of the shire who want to take hold of Bilbo's fortune it did remind me of the common people in my town who placed a big deal of hope when an opportunity comes to them. These were working-class people from my town.

    Although my parents had been college teachers their parents come from this working-class rich medium which I was immersed it. So I completely understand Tolkien's enjoyment of simple country life, among books and a fireplace and his disdain of the aristocracy because I had my share of contact when my parents decided to visit their "friends" with other college teachers who were in most cases snobs and arrogant and as a kid, I had to go with my parents and not once their kids who we had to stay with while my folks talked to their friends reminded me that my family was not as rich as they were or suggested our ( mine and my brothers ) lack of refinement.

    As an adult I have got completely blown away by images of the country-side of the British island, Although the architecture is different and we don't see snow for decades, I see some similarities.

    Some pictures of my home town Botucatu (other omnipresent cultural influences are native Brazilian names or food as the above-mentioned tapioca. )

    Botucatu.jpg552ef8c7-59a3-4d51-a9fb-6715d85a3201.jpgponte-entre-o-terreiro.jpgbotucatu-rural-fazenda-nao-informado-22-03-2019_16-01-30-7.jpgbotucatu-andre-godinho.jpgcachoeira-veu-da-noiva-botucatu-1.jpg


    download.jpgBotucatu (1).jpg 197229_original.jpg image_4009.jpg



    By the way, seriously my hometown has declared war against the British Empire twice and the acts are still active after nearly two centuries.
    Last edited by zlogdan; 08-10-2020, 09:47 AM.
    "From time to time I demonstrate the inconceivable, or mock the innocent, or give truth to liars, or shred the poses of virtue.(...) Now I am silent; this is my mood." From Sundrun's Garden, Jack Vance.
    "As the Greeks have created the Olympus based upon their own image and resemblance, we have created Gotham City and Metropolis and all these galaxies so similar to the corporate world, manipulative, ruthless and well paid, that conceived them." Braulio Tavares.

  • #2
    Another town here in Brazil that has been recently told to have English influence

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranapiacaba

    download (1).jpgParanapiacaba1.jpg
    "From time to time I demonstrate the inconceivable, or mock the innocent, or give truth to liars, or shred the poses of virtue.(...) Now I am silent; this is my mood." From Sundrun's Garden, Jack Vance.
    "As the Greeks have created the Olympus based upon their own image and resemblance, we have created Gotham City and Metropolis and all these galaxies so similar to the corporate world, manipulative, ruthless and well paid, that conceived them." Braulio Tavares.

    Comment


    • #3
      When people refer to my Brazilian culture I associated with things I hate like Samba or Rio De Janeiro, where I never lived. I also don't live in a favela or near the amazon forest and I mostly identify myself to the "Cultura caipira":

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caipira_dialect
      "From time to time I demonstrate the inconceivable, or mock the innocent, or give truth to liars, or shred the poses of virtue.(...) Now I am silent; this is my mood." From Sundrun's Garden, Jack Vance.
      "As the Greeks have created the Olympus based upon their own image and resemblance, we have created Gotham City and Metropolis and all these galaxies so similar to the corporate world, manipulative, ruthless and well paid, that conceived them." Braulio Tavares.

      Comment


      • #4
        More to say when I get some more time, but let me take the time now to say that those are stunning photos Z!

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Doc View Post
          More to say when I get some more time, but let me take the time now to say that those are stunning photos Z!
          Seconded on the stunning photos.

          But I also have to point out my verbose comment had little to nothing to do with hobbits and bucolic rural settings. It was about the English class system of the early 20th century and how I think MM is far better positioned to make the judgement that Tolkien's orcs are like working class villains than Daniel is when he casts doubt on the idea.

          I will admit, however, that Daniel has surprised me at how much like a Tolkien hobbit he is.

          Comment


          • #6
            Tolkien said that he based the Hobbits on the people he knew in his life thus my point. The topic of this thread is, however:

            Cultural differences, and similarities and the simple country life

            So it shouldn't fall under the strict class systems definitions.
            "From time to time I demonstrate the inconceivable, or mock the innocent, or give truth to liars, or shred the poses of virtue.(...) Now I am silent; this is my mood." From Sundrun's Garden, Jack Vance.
            "As the Greeks have created the Olympus based upon their own image and resemblance, we have created Gotham City and Metropolis and all these galaxies so similar to the corporate world, manipulative, ruthless and well paid, that conceived them." Braulio Tavares.

            Comment


            • #7
              Hobbits or not, the almost mythological bucolic country living that Tolkien admired doesn’t exist in the U.S. Rural life has long been a little denigrated, even sometimes by people who praise it. Even Thoreau and Emerson weren’t exactly ready to give up urbanity completely. Part of this, in the U.S., is absolutely about classism, especially as it relates to Reconstruction and the south, as well as immigrant farm workers.

              Comment


              • #8
                My wife lived in a street which was close to some rural properties ( I am not sure how to describe them because the street was a definite city street but you could see the fields of green in the distance something I do love about small rural cities where my Hobbit heart belongs ) and they had a friend called Matilda, who was a wonderful example of a Shire Hobbit not just in how she behaved but physically. Her home was a bit like a cottage surrounded by plants.

                In my state, the big plague is sugar cane. Its plantations killed a big part of the bucolic rural landscape we had in the past.
                "From time to time I demonstrate the inconceivable, or mock the innocent, or give truth to liars, or shred the poses of virtue.(...) Now I am silent; this is my mood." From Sundrun's Garden, Jack Vance.
                "As the Greeks have created the Olympus based upon their own image and resemblance, we have created Gotham City and Metropolis and all these galaxies so similar to the corporate world, manipulative, ruthless and well paid, that conceived them." Braulio Tavares.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Doc View Post
                  Hobbits or not, the almost mythological bucolic country living that Tolkien admired doesn’t exist in the U.S. Rural life has long been a little denigrated, even sometimes by people who praise it. Even Thoreau and Emerson weren’t exactly ready to give up urbanity completely. Part of this, in the U.S., is absolutely about classism, especially as it relates to Reconstruction and the south, as well as immigrant farm workers.
                  I would agree with this. The Jeffersonians set the model in the US for the ideal Rural life and that was more inspired by early-modern English manorialism (if the form of Southern slave-holding Plantations) than by the cottagers and tenants who work the English countryside. The denigration of American rural life really came to fore as a result of the American Civil War which resulted, culturally speaking, in the idea of the superiority of Northern urban industrialism over the Southern Plantation culture. Association with the later was forever tied to the slave society and those who espoused any virtue in rural living have been tied to the same yoke of history--regardless of their actual stance on the matter.
                  "In omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro"
                  --Thomas a Kempis

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by zlogdan View Post
                    My wife lived in a street which was close to some rural properties ( I am not sure how to describe them because the street was a definite city street but you could see the fields of green in the distance something I do love about small rural cities where my Hobbit heart belongs ) and they had a friend called Matilda, who was a wonderful example of a Shire Hobbit not just in how she behaved but physically. Her home was a bit like a cottage surrounded by plants.

                    In my state, the big plague is sugar cane. Its plantations killed a big part of the bucolic rural landscape we had in the past.
                    Too bad there aren't more places in the world like this.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by EverKing View Post

                      I would agree with this. The Jeffersonians set the model in the US for the ideal Rural life and that was more inspired by early-modern English manorialism (if the form of Southern slave-holding Plantations) than by the cottagers and tenants who work the English countryside. The denigration of American rural life really came to fore as a result of the American Civil War which resulted, culturally speaking, in the idea of the superiority of Northern urban industrialism over the Southern Plantation culture. Association with the later was forever tied to the slave society and those who espoused any virtue in rural living have been tied to the same yoke of history--regardless of their actual stance on the matter.
                      And further classism/ nationalism/ racism shows up in the treatment of many waves of immigrants who became farm labor, from early Irish and Italian immigrants to a present wave of immigrants from south of the U.S. border. Pitting these people against African-Americans has been a ploy that has worked not just in rural labor, but industrial strikebreaking as well. Anything less than WASPy and urban was decidedly second class until probably Kennedy's presidential election.

                      And I should also mention that the intersection of classism and nativism shows up strongly in rural Appalachia, where people who were less than WASPy wound up looking for the American dream. Part of why Appalachia was essentially raided for coal and left to die was because it was largely settled by immigrant outsiders with strong ties to Scotland and Ireland, so robber barons felt free to plunder the second class citizens.

                      And sorry for the bit of a tangent...

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Doc View Post

                        And further classism/ nationalism/ racism shows up in the treatment of many waves of immigrants who became farm labor, from early Irish and Italian immigrants to a present wave of immigrants from south of the U.S. border. Pitting these people against African-Americans has been a ploy that has worked not just in rural labor, but industrial strikebreaking as well. Anything less than WASPy and urban was decidedly second class until probably Kennedy's presidential election.

                        And I should also mention that the intersection of classism and nativism shows up strongly in rural Appalachia, where people who were less than WASPy wound up looking for the American dream. Part of why Appalachia was essentially raided for coal and left to die was because it was largely settled by immigrant outsiders with strong ties to Scotland and Ireland, so robber barons felt free to plunder the second class citizens.

                        And sorry for the bit of a tangent...
                        The issues of nationalism absolutely continue. In the Upper Mid-West it was lest about WASPy-ness about more about good German (and Nordic) Lutheranism. Not initially, of course, but at least since the early 20th. Of course, non-Germans tended to congregate in the Urban centers (with the exception of Finns lumbering and mining the North), leaving the division between Urban and Rural more distinct as the former became populated with Slavic peoples, Hungarians, and Catholics while the Germans and Nordics continued to dominate the rural areas. Lately the urban centers have been populated with refugee immigrants from SE Asia (Hmong, mostly) and Somalia as well as displaced southern African-Americans moving north for seemingly better opportunities. Rural areas have had a large influx of migrant workers, mostly Latinx. There are real cultural divides between these communities that goes well beyond an overly simplified Urban/Rural split. The traditional distaste the migrants brought with them from their home cultures have only been amplified by the nationalistic jingoism of modern America.
                        "In omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro"
                        --Thomas a Kempis

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          A few more pictures

                          Another aerial view of my town, please see the fields in the distance.

                          images (1).jpgdownload (1).jpg


                          Some examples of the fine people here


                          images.jpgmaxresdefault.jpg


                          Nice house for renting and Nice waterfall

                          unnamed.jpgdownload.jpg

                          We have some good stouts and ales

                          colorado demoiselle.jpgdownload (2).jpg


                          And we definitely have our songs

                          Tristeza do Jeca

                          "I was born in that mountain sierra in a ranch-side
                          All full of holes, where the moon shines
                          When dawn comes
                          From the forest, the walk starts a noise
                          When dawn comes
                          From the forest, the walk starts a noise"

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCsu2ilfmc8



                          Attached Files
                          "From time to time I demonstrate the inconceivable, or mock the innocent, or give truth to liars, or shred the poses of virtue.(...) Now I am silent; this is my mood." From Sundrun's Garden, Jack Vance.
                          "As the Greeks have created the Olympus based upon their own image and resemblance, we have created Gotham City and Metropolis and all these galaxies so similar to the corporate world, manipulative, ruthless and well paid, that conceived them." Braulio Tavares.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Beautiful photos, zlogdan. Some of them are very similar to what I saw in Papua New Guinea when I was a kid growing up there.

                            I had two very different images of "rural life" when I was growing up - on one hand, the PNG bush, where each village was the centre of its own world; on the other hand, the New Zealand countryside my maternal grandparents farmed, centred on the usual chain of market towns all the way up to the cities and the overseas markets. I think what fascinated me the most about Tolkien's Shire was the way it blended those two world - the Shire is centred on itself, yet it has all the amenities of the world where one has a market chain ... which is what made me such a fan of Corum - his world is very, very much like the PNG village world, each house centred on itself, with some trading with other houses ...
                            sigpic Myself as Mephistopheles (Karen Koed's painting of me, 9 Nov 2008, U of Canterbury, CHCH, NZ)

                            Gold is the power of a man with a man
                            And incense the power of man with God
                            But myrrh is the bitter taste of death
                            And the sour-sweet smell of the upturned sod,

                            Nativity,
                            by Peter Cape

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