Video Games & Addiction [split from Education & Religion]

[Morgan Kane]

2 subjects here :

- 1 ) teaching religion in school .... : non but teaching what is religion and history of religion yes ... In France, in the last year of high school/college ( at 17 / 18 ) philosophy is taught and religion is one of the themes .

Evolution must be taught, not one the same level than religion but as a part of the scientific corpus.

- 2) The level of the students ?

He is not good, he is not average, he is not bad, he is abyssimal ......

I have been a member of a jury testing students with 5 or 6 years at university, each time i was choked.

But i am not sure that the level has gone down !

The key of the matter is that 40 years ago, 1 young out of twenty or some thing like that went to university ..... Today, at least 1/4 of youngs go to university.

40 years ago, most students went to select high school and were coming from the upper middle or upper classes. They had the level in humanities... Now many students come from the middle middle class an from families who have not the level in humanities.

As the openning of universityhas not been accompanied by the means to teach theses new stutdents, the average level ahas fallen.

But i am sure that the level of the elite is the same as 40 years ago, with two differences

- a ) The competition of TV and video games with reading

- b) The requirements have changed .


2 )

[Mespheber]

I don't think we can blame TV or video games. It looks to me like a scapegoat to avoid the real questions: why pupils have less interest in human sciences or science in general? When I was in thatre university, our teachers told us that before the 73 crisis, there were a balance of man and woman in these studies. Then, the fear of unemployement, the changes in the 70's made people to become practical and study needed knowledge as a priority. Now, the situation is no one can be sure that the studies engaged won't be obsolete when the time of finding a job will come. As a response to delusions and scepticism, leisures are an alternative to despair.

A low analysis, probably, but I figure anyway that "Something is rotten in the state of Denmark".

[Morgan Kane]

No

TV and video games are addictive .......

Studies have shown correlation beetwen time in front of TV and video games, lack of scholarly knowledge and obesity.

To learn something, you must make an effort. A child does not like naturally make boring efforts.

It is easier to be in front of TV .

Another thing : young read less and less when reading is the best way to get a good level in humanities.

And, less learning means a mind more open to superstition .... Magic and science on the same level !

[Mespheber]

No

TV and video games are addictive .......

I was born in the same generation, Morgan. I used to play video games, but I never felt addicted. If people use it as a drug, as any addiction, it means they are not satisfied by what reality provides them. On this way, video games is a scapegoat: remove them and youth will use alkohol or cocain. Still, these drugs are fuckin' more expensive...

To learn something, you must make an effort. A child does not like naturally make boring efforts.

I start to read at six years old...

Another thing : young read less and less when reading is the best way to get a good level in humanities.

Maybe, but does knowledge makes one a human? I prefer a man with an poor brain but a wealthy heart. Montaigne's spirit. ;)

And, less learning means a mind more open to superstition .... Magic and science on the same level !

I know people well-educated, reading a lot who behave this way. You should go on some religious forums, it's very instructing.

The need to believe in magic respond to another need, a spiritual one which is the huge crisis invisibly rising in human's unconscious. The feeling of lost in a century where everything change so fast that most of references are drowned in commercials, bad movies and crappys songs.
If you want to blame some one, Morgan, blame Walt Disney.

[PsychicWarVeteran]

TV and video games are addictive .......

Studies have shown correlation beetwen time in front of TV and video games, lack of scholarly knowledge...

I'm throwing up the "link" smiley because I would like to see these "studies". I worked for Nintendo for six years as a game play counselor and have probably spent more time than the average Joe researching the video game phenominon. I am almost obligated to say that this statement of Morgan's is complete rubbish! In fact, the majority of gamers tend to be quite intelligent. Video games increase brain activity and refine motor function. Problem solving, exposure to new ideas and methods of thought, memory strengthening, enhanced hand-eye coordination... these are all clinically determined effects of video gaming.

A well-rounded education which includes sufficient reading and writing can also include television and video gaming without detriment. Fact.

As Miqque says, stupid people do not learn easily. A moron is a moron whether in front of a dictionary or in front of a GameCube.

Oop! Really, I'm not trying to split this thread off again into another topic. Sorry for the tangent, but I had to get it out.

[johneffay]

A well-rounded education which includes sufficient reading and writing can also include television and video gaming without detriment. Fact.

However, the fact is that if you are playing video games a lot, something else has to suffer because it takes up so much time. Whether that is necessarily a bad thing is another matter. I've spent over twenty-five years playing games and whilst it has never affected my reading or education, I watch very little in the way of television. Personally, I consider that a fair trade off.

On the other side of the coin, I know that the release of Baldur's Gate set back my friend's PhD by the best part of six months.

[PsychicWarVeteran]

On the other side of the coin, I know that the release of Baldur's Gate set back my friend's PhD by the best part of six months.

But I'm sure you would agree that was your friend's problem, not an inherent problem with the game or gaming in general.

I just like to avoid genralized statements based on studies I cannot find evidence of. (I did find one Japanese scientist whose tests were disingenious at best.) A sensitive subject for me, to be sure, but I'm tired of gaming taking the blame for all sorts of BS it isn't responsible for.

Oddly enough, I don't play many video games anymore. Too busy.

But getting back to the topic of the thread: Should video gaming be taught in Christian schools? I mean... should religion be included in video games? I mean...

...what were we talking about again?

[Doc]

I have to jump in! This is a great discussion!

On addiction to TV and video games--

There are some studies that show that television and video games, while not addictive in the clinical sense, create symptoms of addiction in people.

The most important: other (more important) aspects of your life begin to suffer, including work, family, and social lives; and people play or watch more than they intend to, and underestimate the time they watch and play, even to the point of lying about it. People also report both physical and emotional symptoms of withdrawal.

I have an article at work that outlines some of this. If anyone is interested, I can post the citation tomorrow.

Miqque is astute: stupid people do not learn easily. Fact.

Morgan is also on to something (in my opinion). College enrollments are up. Many people are going to colleges and universities who wouldn't have gone 10 years ago, and certainly not 20 years ago. While many people are getting an opportunity and exceeding expectations, growing admissions (even with tightening admission standards) often means more people wind up toward the bottom of grade distributions. Interestingly, studies have shown that this is not the case at some of the most prestigious American universities, but only because grade inflation is such a problem in these institutions. In other words, more admissions lead to more failures. This is accurate in the absolute sense of raw numbers, but also in a relative sense, as proportions of failures are also rising.

Anecdotally, in the last 10 or 12 years, I've seen no drop-off in the quality of my best students (all at moderately selective state universities). I have seen dramatic rise in the number of people who work hard and fail or barely pass.

I also have to throw into this conversation all of the willful ignorance that some people bring to education. They resent someone having answers and knowledge that others say is important, valuable, or even a commodity. They want the value of the experience, but not the knowledge. They want to learn how to convince people they've learned, but do not internalize it at all. This is especially (to get back to the point of this thread) accurate with respect to some religious beliefs. As a sociology prof, I can teach all about the nature, causes and consequenses of human social behavior, but many students smile and go through the motions, convinced that I'm out of my mind, because they already know, with great certainty, that sociology cannot explain anything. All of that stuff is just "God's will." Granted, I am in Texas, but...

[PsychicWarVeteran]

There are some studies that show that television and video games, while not addictive in the clinical sense, create symptoms of addiction in people...

Physical addiction or psychological dependence? I hate to nit-pick, but there is a vast difference. Isn't there? I know you mention people complaing of physical withdrawl from gaming, but I fail to see how there could be any such thing other than, perhaps, someone misunderstanding the symptoms of carpal-tunnel.

The most important: other (more important) aspects of your life begin to suffer, including work, family, and social lives; and people play or watch more than they intend to, and underestimate the time they watch and play, even to the point of lying about it.

Sure, but again, that's not the fault of the game.

Some similar examples for comarison.

Dude smokes too much pot and keeps missing appointments: is that marijauna's fault? No.

Dude gambles too much and can't pay his bills: is it because gambling in inherently bad? Nope.

Dude can't stop having unprotected sex and gets HIV: is sex, then, evil at its core? Of course not!

So, how is it that some dolt neglecting his life because of video games the fault of the game? I just don't get it. It seems to me video games are yet another scape-goat so that people don't have to accept responsibility for their actions. Feh!

I also have to throw into this conversation all of the willful ignorance that some people bring to education...

Those who bring willful ignorance into your classroom, Doc, are the very same ones who make video gaming look bad for everyone. Idiots are idiots.

[Doc]

Idiots are idiots.[/FONT]

Ha! Simple is best.

On the addiction thing-
I don't disagree with you, PWV. The study pointed out how video games and television produced addiction-like symptoms. At the risk of steering this thread in the wrong direction, I would say that we over-diagnose many things in general, and classify too many things as addictions.

My guess (nothing to back up my opinion at the present) is that many people who are "addicted" to things like video games, television, etc... have some combinations of obessions and compulsions--in the clinical sense.

Many others just have screwy priorities

[Miqque]

Is it addiction or is it lifestyle? Definitely there are social reinforcers of such behavior, and knowledge and familiarity with video games and such are needed for social acceptance, so these are strong secondary reinforcers.

But 'addiction'? Doc, I'm a CDC, grandfathered in long ago, in addition to the other academic and work blather. I'm very, very cautious about the label of 'addict'. Are we addicted to air? You bet. I prefer the term 'habituated'. Not only is it too big a word for the ignoramuses to easily understand, it more accurately describes the situation. It's a habit. It does not endanger life when withdrawn. It simply leads to more bad behavior. Ergo, habit. Smoking is an addiction, as withdrawal symptoms are clear and easily observed in vital signs, EKG, brain behavior via PET scans, and other such quantifiable evidence. But video games? Got to go with my parents on this one, although they were so anti-everything and into "you can do anything you want to" (an obvious lie; I still have not succeeded in unassisted flight); but they defined addictions as "If they put you on a desert island and you didn't have any _____, it wouldn't kill you." Clumsily phrased, but seems to be mostly true.

There's discomfort and then there's physical danger. Taking so much Substance X that it requires intensive monitoring and intervention in a hospital environment to withdraw seems to indicate 'addiction'. Just being miserable and angry and not knowing what to do with one's self seems to me to be a far cry from that.

Sorry to pound the point, but I think it's very important. If you saw the way people are treated in Colorado when they equest or need any sort of controlled substance you would realize how critical it is to not paint with a broad brush. That is what has been done here, to the detriment of many by the abuse of a few.

It's awkward up hee on this creaking soapbox!

Back soon, found a cool 'stupid' quote.

Here it is:

"Any human organization can be rendered useless, impotent, a danger to itself, by selectively removing its best minds while carefully leaving the stupid ones in place."

Robert Heinlein, Friday

[PsychicWarVeteran]

Doc's clarification of "addiction-like" qualities I can follow. The people aren't actually addicted, but they may suffer perhaps psychosomatic symtoms of withdrawl.

But if anyone ever told me they were getting headaches or had insomnia because they weren't getting enough game time in, I'd have laugh.

This is going to be the most split-off thread in the world.

[Dark Lord's Passing]

Doc's clarification of "addiction-like" qualities I can follow. The people aren't actually addicted, but they may suffer perhaps psychosomatic symtoms of withdrawl.

But if anyone ever told me they were getting headaches or had insomnia because they weren't getting enough game time in, I'd have laugh.

This is going to be the most split-off thread in the world.

A psychology student friend of mine makes distinction between addiction and dependency. If I understood her correctly, addiction is a physiological requirement, where dependency is a psychological requirement. Of course the former can engender the latter.

[PsychicWarVeteran]

A psychology student friend of mine makes distinction between addiction and dependency.

Agreed, DLP. That's what I was trying to get at here. Some people may think they're addicted, but they simply have weak wills.

[johneffay]

This is going to be the most split-off thread in the world.

Yes folks, I've split it again. The exciting bit will be when I join all these threads back together using W.S. Burroughs' cut up method