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Education and Religion [Split from Evolution...]

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  • Education and Religion [Split from Evolution...]

    I think that teaching religion should be kept out of state schools. If religions want it taught, then they pay for it.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Doc
    At the risk of taking this thread in the wrong direction, you could say the same about Jesus and those who follow him, although he was more convinced he had found the truth.
    His matter was mostly about Israel independance and equality of people, he never bother himself about questioning science or traditions. However, his followers, and mostly the roman empire, saw the advantage they could take by using his message to bind peoples. But it's another story.

    Originally posted by Dark Lord's Passing
    I think that teaching religion should be kept out of state schools. If religions want it taught, then they pay for it.
    In Germany, there are religions lectures in public high school. However, it is a way to learn about all religions: christianism, islam, judaism, bouddhism... In this way, they are able to have a larger point of view on the world which surround them. Public school purpose is to give to anyone the opportunity to get the same knowledge. There is "teaching" and "endoctrinating".
    Free the West Memphis Three

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    • #3
      I was never taught any religion in school.


      I had to volunteer and choose the class that taught me about Darwin.

      So, it kinda drives me up the wall for one side to say no religion in schools

      and the other side to say stop teaching our children Evolution!

      The children can choose what they want to study. All the parents need do is ask the teacher or anyone what the class teaches. The parents need to be involved, not just put the kid on the bus, especially if they are going to be so picky.

      A small part of Genesis was the only hint of religion in my school, that was in a Literature course that I had to choose, not just get placed in. And it was not printed as fact!

      "With a deep, not-unhappy sigh, Elric prepared to do battle with an army." (Red Pearls)
      - Michael Moorcock

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      • #4
        We have to distinguish between "teaching religion" and "teaching about religion". The second is essential in my opinion - ignore religion and it won't go away. But I'm not talking about atheist indoctrination (that was tried in Marxist states and didn't work) - just the historical and sociological facts about religion plus the ability to reason logically should be enough to neutralise it.
        Last edited by Mikey_C; 08-17-2006, 03:30 PM.
        \"...an ape reft of his tail, and grown rusty at climbing, who yet feels himself to be a symbol and the frail representative of Omnipotence in a place that is not home.\" James Branch Cabell

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        • #5
          Agreeing with Myckey C ........

          In France, Children are not not taught about religion but history is a part of the teaching.

          And pupils do not chose the teaching they are given, except in high school for extra curricular matters, history being not one of them.

          Evolution is taught in the natural science class without insisting .........

          It is not up to children to choose what they learn .......

          One of the problem is that in some suburbs, children don' t want to be taught because the content of the teaching is contrary to the beliefs of the family.

          Evolution is not primarily in question but for instance birth control, history etc

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          • #6
            Originally posted by lemec
            The children can choose what they want to study. All the parents need do is ask the teacher or anyone what the class teaches. The parents need to be involved, not just put the kid on the bus, especially if they are going to be so picky.
            That's not the children choosing; it is the parents. Hardly a desirable state of affairs.

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            • #7
              During colonisation, it was taught about Islam that it was a barbaric religion. The problem is that for many people science has taken the place of religion: they take for granted new discoveries or theories and find themselves confused when changes happen. A guy with a white vest is an authority in many people mind. Or a waiter if you're in a restaurant, but still, it is the guy you'll go to have informations on the menu.

              What really miss people is a self-critical mind.
              Free the West Memphis Three

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              • #8
                Originally posted by johneffay
                That's not the children choosing; it is the parents. Hardly a desirable state of affairs.


                That is a good point, that I was not thinking of, in that angle.

                It's bad for the parent to choose, because the child will never get an expanded view of the world that way.


                Going back to religion, they don't have to teach a religion, obviously, but they need to acknowlege it as a thing that exists in the world.

                It does lead to understanding,such as when they teach children about September Eleventh, it helps to know that religious beliefs played a strong role in the event.

                right?


                I guess living as your parents is not always the best thing to do, for the people in the society,so they can learn new things and improve themselves and others. I guess. The child needs to see other points of view,so when they grow up, they can decide how to live.

                They should know a little about everything in that case. It would also teach respect, respect to those who focus on science and also respect those who believe in their religion or spirituality.

                "With a deep, not-unhappy sigh, Elric prepared to do battle with an army." (Red Pearls)
                - Michael Moorcock

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                • #9
                  Since we're segueing (seguing?) into education, I've considerably more than two cents to put in.

                  Basically, international education has declined in quality; methinks too many following the dyfunctional American model. I know this is a problem in Great Briatin, especially Scotland. After paying attention to this problem for many years, I've come up with a couple of insights that may help. and apply specifically to the religion/evolution issue.

                  Education has been compartmentalized. First there's a bloc of English, then arithmetic, then recess, then grinding subject by subject onwards.

                  Then there is a huge overemphasis on standardized testing. Tests rote recall and minimal computational abilities, does not test overall comprehension nor the least of application.

                  So one thing needs to be added. A recap nearly daily of the overall point of being educated, what was learned, why, and expected uses. For instance, instead of just teaching mathematical operations, some explanation of how these operations are used to help individuals. Being able to quickly divide a set of prices into units and compare costs (which involves several seperate operations), can be shown to be useful when grocery shopping or other purchases; as well as stocking for a business. Left dry, kids revolt against "things I will never use". Typically, these are things used almost every day.

                  Same with this quandary about religion versus evolution. The only way to put this in proper perspective is to teach both, and not only in science classes, but also in literature and sociology (current events). Mention should be made of those who believe one way or another at extremes, and how these interact to form a framework for understanding what is going on in the world.

                  Kids are being left without context. Once in school, subjects are pretty much shoved in a box without a label, and interactions with other subjects is discouraged. This leads to learning what is needed for a grade, then promptly forgetting all the material for more important subject matters like who is wearing what and what might be the popular songs this week. Teaching context and the macro-view of education would be the single most effective tool in re-engaging the students into their studies. Even a short discussion at the end of the day (which used to be reserved as the parent's duties) is now needed as we have generations brought up with the compartmentalized system and cannot generalize that way themselves, let alone teach their children how to do it.

                  Miqque
                  ... just another sailor on the seas of Fate, dogpaddling desperately ...

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                  • #10
                    Interesting that being glued to one's views, opinions and early learning is referred to as "concrete thinking". Since the brain is a neuro-chemical-electical dynamo, one must remember how poorly concrete conducts electricity.

                    Guess it boils down to "stupid people do not learn easily".

                    The facility to explore new ideas and the flavor of nuances in interactions with older ideas is delicious. While I'm no super-scholar, I've always enjoyed "deeper" thoughts than most. Now, being in an environment where "I don't read books !" is the Battle Cry of the Sub-Mediocre I find any literary reference is lost, and that even the plot to the film or TV show they are watching at the moment is lost to them (but with perfect recall for the advertising) I find I'm getting very lonely and socially isolated. I had the illusion that living near major universities might help. But, no. Students at Boulder, Fort Collins or Loveland (or UNC in Greeley) all seem far more interested in the opposite sex and partying than retaining a single iota of data. I've tried teaching, the environment is not conducive. There is a definite bias towards athletic scholarships, and it rather sickens me to see jocks and jockettes getting the free pass in class. This void is growing. It must be bad in the schools when I am casting my hopes onto the home-schooled. The schism between socially acceptable and formally educated is growing, and I can't help but to see this schism between the Uncaring-Unlearned and the intelligentsia to be the next huge domestic battleground.

                    How might one to expect delving into mysteries like how was the universe created or the thoughts of God going to pierce this culture that seems based on talking to each other on cell phones and maintaining an even more rigorous generational gap than we had in the 1960's-1970's? These kids (here in America and of a general 10-20 years old range) tend to not conceive responsibility, nor are they drawn to working even at something they enjoy. They have become hedonistic, trained from the cradle to quickly define their own wants, needs and preferences and getting them sated as soon as possible. No wonder not one order comes up correct at the burger joint, or that my buddy quit after two weeks as a fry cook because he could not maintain a clean kitchen. (Guess where I'm not eating burgers now!) Plus, as a Christian, the foul language spewed by these children was extremely off-putting. This close contact with those few who even made it into the work force shows the almost complete lack of ability to function in low-level working. Same with weed-pullers and day laborers. Can't seem to understand why drinking on the job is an offense cured by termination.

                    Add to all this the fact that most being home-schooled are being taught by the religiously devout. I cannot and will not make judgments as to their teaching ability. But ask most of them to explain the more basic scientific principles and they are at a loss.

                    What we sow, we reap. And there's a crop of scary-ignorant out there figuring that the world belongs to them and they may do as they wish.

                    I'm gonna go hide under the bed for a couple months.
                    Miqque
                    ... just another sailor on the seas of Fate, dogpaddling desperately ...

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