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Israel/Lebanon Conflict (Split from 'Cyprus, Refugees...'

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  • Originally posted by Talisant
    That's pretty shocking, haven't heard of the produce shortfalls there before. Drafts? Do you mean that farm workers are being drafted, or that Poland's work force in general is being depleted. Most of the work force in the U.S. these days wouldn't know how to work on a farm.
    I just mean that the weather is so dry that the crops are lost. Polish people are hard workers, but they are no match to the climate changing as none of us.

    My point is: what can we do? Israel may be wrong but lebanese government supported Hezbollah for years. Pity for the population killed but it's a war. You wouldn't expect one without casualties would you? It may sounds cynical, but I'm tired of this mediatic intoxication while our own countries are about to encounter the biggest changing in their whole history. No matter our technology, we remains flesh and blood and without bread or water (not to mention air), we die as well as in a war. The present consequence on agriculture is: the prices will increase. Add to this the production costs which have been grown by oil cost, a single bread will soon cost as much as a box of caviar.
    Free the West Memphis Three

    Comment


    • Mes : you should open un thread upon this subject... many should be interested .....

      But
      Pity for the population killed but it's a war
      is too easy.

      International convention have been signed ( not by Israel and the United states for some of them ) to protect civilians popuilations .

      War crimes are committed by Israelian army and should be judged, as war crimes committed by the U.S. governement .....

      But they are the strongest.

      Imagine what would be told if the facts were of the responsability of ... let us imagine Yougoslavian army ?

      Comment


      • In some sense every war is a crime. It usually involves civilians. I mean war is rarely two armies meeting on an open field to conduct warfare. And in any case, there's always the grief to the (civilian) families of the soldiers who died on the battlefield.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Oren Douek
          In some sense every war is a crime.
          That shouldn't be used to excuse war crimes committed by individual soldiers/armies - on any side.

          Meanwhile...

          Bush 'apology' over bomb flights

          US President George Bush has "apologised" to Tony Blair for using Prestwick Airport to refuel aircraft transporting bombs to Israel.

          The prime minister's spokesman said Mr Bush gave "a one-line" apology that proper procedures were not followed.


          The two political leaders gave a media conference in the White House on Friday addressing the Middle East crisis.


          Some air traffic controllers at Prestwick raised concerns about handling flights carrying bombs.


          The result of an investigation into the Israeli-bound bomb cargo flights is expected to be made known on Monday.


          The Civil Aviation Authority has been conducting an inquiry into the landings, which the Foreign Office believes may have broken rules.


          Speaking on Friday, Mr Blair's official spokesman said: "President Bush did apologise for the fact that proper procedures were not followed, but that was all.


          "It was just one line. As part of the introduction, the president said sorry there was a problem.


          "It was a gracious thing to do."


          'Very uncomfortable'

          BBC Scotland has learned that staff were unhappy about dealing with the US planes because flight plans appeared to mention that there were bombs on board.

          Some of the 200 air traffic controllers said they were "very uncomfortable" handling certain aircraft.


          Unions have considered an approach to the management as a result.


          One air traffic controller, who did not want to be identified, said: "We usually don't know the cargo that is on board but for some reason this one's flight plan was brazenly advertising it was carrying bombs.


          "People are very uncomfortable with that.


          "We usually don't have time to worry about what's on board but there is a feeling that this is not good.


          "We work with military aircraft all the time and people here are professional.

          "They would never leave traffic that needs to be dealt with but there are people who feel uncomfortable working with certain aircraft."

          The Foreign Office's concern is a matter of procedure because the cargo does not appear to have been notified as it should have been.


          Foreign Secretary Margaret Beckett has raised concerns with the US Government.


          Following Mrs Beckett's open display of displeasure over the flights issue, a White House spokesman said he was sure procedures were in order.


          Immediate ceasefire

          First Minister Jack McConnell is under pressure to prevent further arms shipments using Scottish soil.

          His office said aviation and foreign policy were matters reserved to Westminster.


          Backbenchers have urged Mr Blair to push for an immediate ceasefire between Israeli forces and Hezbollah.


          A senior Scottish Labour MP said the prime minister must stop defying public opinion over the crisis in Lebanon.


          Mohammed Sarwar, who is chair of the Scottish Affairs Committee at Westminster, said he was "really disappointed" in the government for refusing to call for a ceasefire.

          The Glasgow Central MSP also said it is "totally unacceptable" that US planes used a Scottish airport while carrying bombs to Israel and said it must not happen again.
          http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/...st/5223444.stm
          Last edited by David Mosley; 07-28-2006, 02:28 PM.
          _"For an eternity Allard was alone in an icy limbo where all the colours were bright and sharp and comfortless.
          _For another eternity Allard swam through seas without end, all green and cool and deep, where distorted creatures drifted, sometimes attacking him.
          _And then, at last, he had reached the real world – the world he had created, where he was God and could create or destroy whatever he wished.
          _He was supremely powerful. He told planets to destroy themselves, and they did. He created suns. Beautiful women flocked to be his. Of all men, he was the mightiest. Of all gods, he was the greatest."

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Oren Douek
            In some sense every war is a crime. It usually involves civilians. I mean war is rarely two armies meeting on an open field to conduct warfare. And in any case, there's always the grief to the (civilian) families of the soldiers who died on the battlefield.
            In a modern way of war civilians are a target as well as facilities for many reasons. Firstly, they are part of the country economy: low them is low the country. Secondly, in a democracy, it is understood that a governement represents its people. As a result, lebanon governement supporting Hezbollah means that its whole population do. That a primal logic, but that's the way of politic.

            That's my personnal analysis. Still, war is a shame for it will take further generation to allow these countries to behave friendly each other if it is even possible.

            By the way, you choosed the right moment to visit Egypt. Promise: if you're caught as an hostage, I'll create an association to collect money to pay the ransom for you and your family.
            Free the West Memphis Three

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Mespheber
              Originally posted by Oren Douek
              In some sense every war is a crime. It usually involves civilians.
              In a modern way of war civilians are a target as well as facilities for many reasons. Firstly, they are part of the country economy: low them is low the country.
              How easily we slip into the mindset that just because something happens it necessarily becomes acceptable. Various 'laws of war' - ie Geneva & Hague Conventions - have as a central principle that "people and property that do not contribute to the war effort be protected against unnecessary destruction and hardship". The deliberate targetting of non-combatants is never acceptable, and when it does happen those responsible should be made to answer for their actions. (imo)

              Originally posted by Mespheber
              Secondly, in a democracy, it is understood that a governement represents its people. As a result, lebanon governement supporting Hezbollah means that its whole population do. That a primal logic, but that's the way of politic.
              I'm sorry but that is such a load of dingos kidneys. A government may represent its people but it by no means follows that its people unanimously support their government's policies. Unless you have some very warped notion of 'democracy'.
              _"For an eternity Allard was alone in an icy limbo where all the colours were bright and sharp and comfortless.
              _For another eternity Allard swam through seas without end, all green and cool and deep, where distorted creatures drifted, sometimes attacking him.
              _And then, at last, he had reached the real world – the world he had created, where he was God and could create or destroy whatever he wished.
              _He was supremely powerful. He told planets to destroy themselves, and they did. He created suns. Beautiful women flocked to be his. Of all men, he was the mightiest. Of all gods, he was the greatest."

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Mespheber
                I just mean that the weather is so dry that the crops are lost. Polish people are hard workers, but they are no match to the climate changing as none of us.

                My point is: what can we do? Israel may be wrong but lebanese government supported Hezbollah for years. Pity for the population killed but it's a war. You wouldn't expect one without casualties would you? :
                No

                The IRA were blowing people up for years here, but we did not go into Southern Ireland with cluster bombs, nor did we attack the USA - where most of their money came from. We used police action and diplomacy, result the troubles in Ireland are not over, but at least people are talking and not killing. The Israelis are taking advantage of the situation I think, they want the Hamas government of the Palestinians out, and they want Hezbollah destroyed.

                Originally posted by Mespheber
                Secondly, in a democracy, it is understood that a government represents its people. As a result, Lebanon government supporting Hezbollah means that its whole population do. That a primal logic, but that's the way of politic.:
                Ths is such total and un-adulterated cow manure I’m not even going to reply to it.

                Comment


                • This is outrageous, anyone considering this justifiable homicide shouldnt be on the streets.
                  SEATTLE - A man walked into a Jewish organization Friday afternoon and opened fire, killing one woman and injuring at least five others before he was arrested, officials said.

                  The gunman, who employees said claimed to be a Muslim angry at Israel, forced his way through the security door at the Jewish Federation after an employee had punched in her security code, said Marla Meislin-Dietrich, a co-worker who was not at the building at the time.
                  http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14082298/

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by silverhand
                    My dislike at the moment is the fact that you can't criticise the actions/policies of the Israeli government without being called anti-semitic. I don't like all the policies of my own government or the U.S. government. Does that make me anti-British or anti-American? No, it means I don't like that particular govenment's policies not the people of that country.
                    If anyone calls you antisemetic for this reason then he is the racist, not you.

                    Comment


                    • The human face of the conflict...
                      In the Israeli army - relatives speak

                      Israel is calling up thousands of reserve troops in the third week of its attempt to crush Hezbollah - and retrieve two captured soldiers.

                      Relatives of soldiers talk of their concerns - and grief - over the conflict.

                      EFRAT PAZ, NETANYA, ISRAEL
                      My nephew Ran was killed last week when his Apache helicopter crashed in northern Israel.

                      He had been called up two days earlier. He was married with a five-year-old daughter and twins of 11 months.

                      He had served one day a week since he was 21. He was 37 when he died.

                      He was very passionate and loved the land of Israel. He was ready to serve his country.

                      The family is only learning now how dangerous his missions were. He flew the Apache helicopter and that's a warplane. His work was more dangerous than we realised.

                      He has three brothers who also serve in front-line positions.

                      High price

                      They grew up in a household that was very proud and dedicated to Israel. They all have a strong sense of duty.

                      My mother's brother was killed in Yom Kippur [the war in 1973]; I have another nephew killed in the war in Lebanon in the 1980s; and now my sister's son has died.

                      Ran was a very upright and talented person. An architect. Quite modest, not a show-off. He was a special child, very attractive.

                      He loved nature. If he flew over somewhere that looked nice he would make a note of it and take his family there.

                      It is a very high price to pay. And we pray that this is the end of it.

                      JANICE LEBERMAN, PHILADELPHIA, USA
                      My son left Britain to take Israeli citizenship two-and-a-half years ago.

                      He's doing his regular service in a tank unit on the border with Gaza.

                      I hope he stays there - it's much better than in the north.

                      Hemi is pretty much a left-winger; he went to Israel because he's always been proud to be a Jew and feels strongly that Israel is the homeland of the Jews. He knew he'd have to serve in the army - he didn't try to avoid it.

                      I am a mother thousands of miles away in Philadelphia. When you're in Israel virtually everyone has a very close relative who's serving. It touches every single person. Sometimes I feel very isolated here.

                      I have to tell you, I was in the car listening to National Public Radio and it said the tanks are rolling into Gaza. I felt physically sick.

                      I call him all the time. The worst thing in the world is when the phone is switched off. It can be 24 or 48 hours.

                      The IDF [Israel Defence Forces] is very good; my son told me he would have to be in a tank for 72 hours. He has times when they tell him: "OK, you can ring your family".

                      The cell phone has been a great invention.

                      RAFI WOLFSON, MESSILOT KIBBUTZ, NORTHERN ISRAEL
                      My son Noam was released from regular service two years ago. He's just been called to serve again, luckily on the southern border with Egypt.

                      Nobody's happy to go - it's a duty you do for the country.

                      I think people from the kibbutz are more willing to volunteer for the fighting units.

                      The kibbutz population is maybe 1-1.5% of the whole population, but its casualty figure in war is proportionally much higher than that.

                      Kibbutzniks are brought up in a community in which they are obliged to give, to serve. So it's easier for them in a way because they are used to the communal spirit required of an organisation like the army.

                      On the other hand, most kibbutzniks are left-wing. I'd say about 90% of us vote for the Labour Party. Their political awareness tends to be higher than that of other citizens.

                      Noam doesn't know how long he'll be serving. I served six months in Yom Kippur in 1973. I hope it won't be that long for him.

                      http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/5224920.stm
                      Last edited by David Mosley; 07-29-2006, 12:03 AM.
                      _"For an eternity Allard was alone in an icy limbo where all the colours were bright and sharp and comfortless.
                      _For another eternity Allard swam through seas without end, all green and cool and deep, where distorted creatures drifted, sometimes attacking him.
                      _And then, at last, he had reached the real world – the world he had created, where he was God and could create or destroy whatever he wished.
                      _He was supremely powerful. He told planets to destroy themselves, and they did. He created suns. Beautiful women flocked to be his. Of all men, he was the mightiest. Of all gods, he was the greatest."

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by David Mosley
                        How easily we slip into the mindset that just because something happens it necessarily becomes acceptable. Various 'laws of war' - ie Geneva & Hague Conventions - have as a central principle that "people and property that do not contribute to the war effort be protected against unnecessary destruction and hardship". The deliberate targetting of non-combatants is never acceptable, and when it does happen those responsible should be made to answer for their actions. (imo)
                        I never said that I agreed this way of thinking, dude. It's just the way the cookie crumbles and there is nothing you or me can do to change it.

                        Originally posted by David Mosley
                        I'm sorry but that is such a load of dingos kidneys. A government may represent its people but it by no means follows that its people unanimously support their government's policies. Unless you have some very warped notion of 'democracy'.
                        Don't patronize me, pal. I'm just exposing the way leaders are conceiving events. A governement unable to protect its citizens may change on the pressure of the electors. Israel choosed to get riddance of Hezbollah definitivelly in this way. What will be the reaction of Lebanon? Will they choose peacemakers or radicalists? I take the bets.
                        Free the West Memphis Three

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Mespheber
                          ... (shortened)
                          What will be the reaction of Lebanon? Will they choose peacemakers or radicalists? I take the bets.
                          I think the people of Lenanon (who are a very mixed bunch of three religions plus sub-sections of those and different ethnic backgrounds) never had a chance since 1967 to choose who really runs their country. Too many foreign interests. They can hardly rule the traffic there, much less allow or disallow armed factions to do their own thing. So the logic that a people getting punished (shudder) for what their government undertakes is not to the point.
                          Google ergo sum

                          Comment


                          • It's not the matter of leaders who follow the rules of power. Officially, Lebanon is a democracy, that give an excuse to involve population into the war process. Actually any state in siege wouldn't have a great choice as leaders. In french constitution, it is foreseen by the Article 16 that in these conditionss all powers remain in our president's hands who is also leader of armies.

                            Let's just hope the next generations will be wise enough to forgive each other and build something new on today's ashes.
                            Free the West Memphis Three

                            Comment


                            • Hezbollah sees this conflict as a way to strengthen itself inside Lebanon, and to settle scores with its political and religious opponents. I'm afraid Israel is playing into Hezbollah's hands here, helping it achieve its (and Iran's) goals in weakening the Lebanese democracy.

                              Inside a well-furnished apartment in a village on the outskirts of Tyre, with shelves of books piled from floor to ceiling, a black turbaned cleric and three men sit sipping bitter coffee. By the door is a pile of Kalashnikovs and ammunition boxes; handguns are tucked into the men's trousers. The four are Hizbullah fighters, waiting for the Israelis.

                              "Patience is our main virtue, we can wait for days, weeks, months before we attack. The Israelis are always impatient in battle and in strategy," says the cleric, Sayed Ali, who claims to be a descendant of the prophet. "I know them very well."

                              As if to make his point, the sound of Israeli shells blasting the surrounding hills shakes the door and shutters every few minutes. Ali does know the Israelis. He started fighting them at the age of 17 when they invaded Lebanon in 1982. Three years later he was arrested with two of his comrades and spent a few months in an Israeli prison. Within weeks of his release he was fighting them again.That's what he did for the next six years.

                              For the last five years he has been finishing his theology studies in Tehran. A month ago, he was asked by Hizbullah to return to southern Lebanon. He arrived a week before the fighting began.

                              Standing at the window, he points to the banana plantations between us and the blue Mediterranean. "I have fought for years in these groves. We used to sit and wait for them [the Israelis] to make a move and then we would hit. They always moved too quickly, too soon."

                              All over the hills of south Lebanon hundreds of men like Sayed Ali and his comrades are waiting - some in bunkers, some in farm houses - for the Israeli troops to arrive. Sayed Ali and his men spend most of their time in the building where his apartment is, moving only at night.

                              "We stay put and we don't move till we get our orders, and this is why we are not like any other militia. A militiaman will fire whenever he likes at whatever he likes," explains one of the men, who says he has been involved in firing Katyusha rockets into northern Israel. "We have specific orders. Even when we fire rockets we know when and where [to fire] and each of the men manning the launchers runs to a specific hiding place after firing the rockets."

                              He says Hizbullah fighters expect the site of a rocket launch to be hit by an Israeli airstrike or shell within 10 to 15 minutes.

                              Another of the men, who says he is Sayed Ali's brother, explains how Hizbullah teaches its fighters patience: "During our training we spend days in empty buildings without talking to anyone or doing anything. They tell me go and sit in that building, and I go and sit there and wait."

                              According to Ali, Hizbullah operates as "a state within the state", with its own hospitals, social organisations and social security system. "But we are also an Islamic resistance movement, an indoctrinated army," he adds. "I would go and knock the door at someone and say we need $50,000, he would give me [that] because they trust us."

                              The fighting force of the organisation is divided into two: the "active" group, whose task is to serve in Hizbullah, and the reserve, or Ta'abi'a, as it is known in Arabic. The active fighters get monthly pay. The reserves are called on only in time of war, and receive bonuses but no regular pay. A third section, the Ansar, comprises people who support or are supported by the organisation.

                              Ali, the commander of Hizbullah in his village, and his men are part of the active force, and their orders are to wait for further orders. "Hizbullah hasn't even mobilised all its active fighters, and the Israelis are calling their reserve units," he said.

                              Hizbullah prides itself on its secretiveness and discipline. "We don't take anyone who knocks at our door and says 'I want to join'. We raise our fighters. We take them when they are young kids and raise them to become Hizbullah fighters. Every fighter we have believes that the ultimate form of being is martyrdom." The three men nod their assent.

                              Shia symbols and mythology play a big role in the ideology of Hizbullah, especially the tragedy of Imam Hussein, the grandson of the prophet who in the 7th century led a few hundred men against the well-organised army of the caliph in Damascus. He was slain in Karbala, and Shia around the world commemorate these events in Ashura.

                              "Every one of those fighters is a true believer, he has been not only trained to use guns and weapons but [indoctrinated] in the Shia faith and the Husseini beliefs," Ali says.

                              He and his fellow fighters have been preparing for the latest conflict with the Israelis for years and he acknowledges the support received from Iran.

                              "When we defeated them in 2000 we did that with [Katyusha] rockets. We had six years to prepare for this day - the Americans are sending laser-guided missiles to the Israelis, what's wrong if the Iranians help us? When the Syrians were here we would get stuff through their supply lines, now it's more difficult."

                              The TV is blaring patriotic songs and pictures of destroyed bridges, houses and buildings. The men are feeling confident - only a day earlier the Israelis suffered heavy casualties in the village of Bint Jbeil.

                              "Our strategy is to hit the commandos and the Golani units like we did in Bint Jbeil," Ali says. "Those are their best units. If they can't do anything, the morale of the reserve units will sink."

                              For Ali and his comrades, the latest conflict is a war of survival not only for Hizbullah but for the whole Shia community. It is not only as a war with Israel, their enemy for decades, but also with the Sunni community. Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Egypt have all expressed fears of Iranian domination over the Middle East.

                              "If Israel comes out victorious from this conflict, this will be a victory for the Sunnis and they will take the Shia community back in history dozens of years to the time when we were only allowed to work as garbage collectors in this country. The Shia will all die before letting this happen again."

                              He says that even if the international community calls on Hizbullah to disarm as part of a peace deal, he and his men will not lay down their arms. "This war is episode two in disarming Hizbullah. First they tried to do it through the Lebanese government and the UN. When they failed, the Americans asked the Israelis to do the job."

                              Despite Israel's claims to have inflicted heavy losses on Hizbullah, Ali insists his side is in a strong position. "Things are going very well now, whatever happens we are winning. If they keep bombing us we will stay in the shelters, and with each bomb more people support the resistance. If they invade they will repeat the miserable fate they had in 1982, and if they hold one square foot they will give the Islamic resistance all the legitimacy. If they want to kill Hizbullah they have to kill every Shia in the south of Lebanon."

                              And even when the battle with the Israelis is over, he adds menacingly, Hizbullah will have other battles to fight. "The real battle is after the end of this war. We will have to settle score with the Lebanese politicians. We also have the best security and intelligence apparatus in this country, and we can reach any of those people who are speaking against us now. Let's finish with the Israelis and then we will settle scores later."
                              http://www.guardian.co.uk/syria/stor...832931,00.html
                              Last edited by Oren; 07-29-2006, 03:24 AM.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Mespheber
                                It's just the way the cookie crumbles and there is nothing you or me can do to change it.
                                I completely refute that. If we simply shrug our shoulders and give up then apathy wins - which is just what our 'leaders' would like - but there's no excuse for not trying to change things. Look at the efforts of ordinary people to 'Make Poverty History'. Perhaps the effort will be futile but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try. We can all at least write to our representatives or newspapers.

                                Originally posted by Mespheber
                                Don't patronize me, pal. I'm just exposing the way leaders are conceiving events.
                                I'm not patronizing you, but if you post crap you'd better expect to get called on it. Note it wasn't just me who thought your post was bullshit.

                                Originally posted by Mespheber
                                A governement unable to protect its citizens may change on the pressure of the electors. Israel choosed to get riddance of Hezbollah definitivelly in this way. What will be the reaction of Lebanon? Will they choose peacemakers or radicalists? I take the bets.
                                Hitler tried to use the same tactics when the Nazi war machine targetted Londoners in 1940-41 in the Blitz. The end result merely stiffened the resolve of the British public against Hitler. If anything, the fact that he felt it necessary to target civilian populations gave people more reason to despise Nazism.
                                Last edited by David Mosley; 07-29-2006, 03:36 AM.
                                _"For an eternity Allard was alone in an icy limbo where all the colours were bright and sharp and comfortless.
                                _For another eternity Allard swam through seas without end, all green and cool and deep, where distorted creatures drifted, sometimes attacking him.
                                _And then, at last, he had reached the real world – the world he had created, where he was God and could create or destroy whatever he wished.
                                _He was supremely powerful. He told planets to destroy themselves, and they did. He created suns. Beautiful women flocked to be his. Of all men, he was the mightiest. Of all gods, he was the greatest."

                                Comment

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