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Israel/Lebanon Conflict (Split from 'Cyprus, Refugees...'

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  • #91
    While I agree with some of both sides of this argument, and would like to contribute, is not a little OT for the thread? Should we not split this thread and have one say called "War in the Middle East" or something like that. I know I am new here and perhaps don't know what I am talking about, it just seems like people cannot talk of their loved ones on this thread, which was the topic, I think.

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    • #92
      Good point, DL's Passing!
      Google ergo sum

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      • #93
        Comparaison beetwen north Ireland and Israel is interesting as the two situations result of a colonial take over ........ Colonised people use the strategy of the feeble to the strong, i.e. terrorism.

        Whatever the respective wrongs, the peace needs the admission of this fact who does not implies the ldestruction of Israel.

        An exemple : France has invaded Germany to make war, somtimes to germans for 2 centuries..... Louis XIV has burned Palatinat and so on.

        Germany has replied invading France in 1792, 1812, 1871,1914 and 1940 with brutality.

        After WWII, despite nazis horrors peace and reconciliation were decided and took place.

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        • #94
          Originally posted by Morgan Kane

          After WWII, despite nazis horrors peace and reconciliation were decided and took place.
          Et ├ža marche bien, non?

          But it is still utopia for the Middle East I'm afraid.
          Google ergo sum

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          • #95
            L'E Wrote
            (whose declared aim it is to finish what Hitl.er left unfinished)

            Dave M. Wrote
            But, in the interests of making cheap satrical shots, consider:


            Not really intended as satire, but more so of an awareness of similarities between the two factions. I see the two as having the same basic Modus Operandi....End Of Transmission...
            Last edited by voilodian ghagnasdiak; 07-27-2006, 05:03 AM.

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            • #96
              Originally posted by voilodian ghagnasdiak
              I dont understand why Kofi Annan doesnt pull all of his people out of the range of fire instead of having them acting as "human shields" alongside Lebanese civillians.
              Ermm, possibly because they are not human shields but on the ground observers able to report back on what is actually going on out there. I don't understand how you could possibly blame Annan for the Israelis carrying out a targetted strike on a UN post despite being told on several occasions that they were there.

              Then again, perhaps Israel has a problem with people reporting back to the UN that they are using cluster bombs and other outlawed anti-personnel weapons in areas which they are well aware contain non-combatants.

              Yes, Hezbollah is an appalling organisation and the people who fund it are no better, but Israel has gone totally beyond the pale in Lebanon. Two wrongs do not make right and the ordinary citizens of Israel and Lebanon will be paying for this for decades to come.

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              • #97
                Originally posted by Dark Lord's Passing
                Should we not split this thread and have one say called "War in the Middle East" or something like that. I know I am new here and perhaps don't know what I am talking about, it just seems like people cannot talk of their loved ones on this thread, which was the topic, I think.
                As there are so few posts relevant to that topic, I have decided to rename the thread rather than split it. I have also merged the arguments about the conflict from the 'Cyprus Refugees' thread, which seemed to me to be going off track somewhat. It would be helpful if we could all restrict our arguments about the conflict itself, to this thread.

                If anybody wants to post on the subject of loved ones in combat zones, feel free to start a new thred and I will move the four or five relevant posts from here over.

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                • #98
                  Originally posted by johneffay
                  Ermm, possibly because they are not human shields but on the ground observers able to report back on what is actually going on out there. I don't understand how you could possibly blame Annan for the Israelis carrying out a targetted strike on a UN post despite being told on several occasions that they were there.

                  Then again, perhaps Israel has a problem with people reporting back to the UN that they are using cluster bombs and other outlawed anti-personnel weapons in areas which they are well aware contain non-combatants.

                  Yes, Hezbollah is an appalling organisation and the people who fund it are no better, but Israel has gone totally beyond the pale in Lebanon. Two wrongs do not make right and the ordinary citizens of Israel and Lebanon will be paying for this for decades to come.
                  Annan condemned the attack as being targeted and then announced an investigation into the matter. That's hypocrisy. The attack on the UN outpost was not targeted, and I'm sure that any neutral and unbiased investigation will prove that.

                  Israel is going through great pains to avoid civilian casualties as much as possible, which is many times tactically counterproductive: Israel warns civilians ahead of time to evacuate to-be-bombed locations and as a result Hezbollah terrorists also flee; Israel many times avoids air-bombing houses that might contain civilians, using ground forces instead and sacrificing soldiers in the process. See the 8 Israeli soldiers killed yesterday - Israel could have just bombed the hell out of the Bint Jbeil terror nest town, but instead it chose a more moral tactic even though it cost the lives of many soldiers. And this all came a week after Israel had warned the civilians of southern Lebanon to evacuate these areas - it could have just ignored those that didn't heed the evacuation cal and bomb away, but chose to act with caution nevertheless.

                  The amount of explosives Israel has used so far could very well have killed ten of thousands already. The fact that only a few hundreds were killed so far (any innocent death is a tragedy, of course!) proves that care has been taken by the Israeli bombers.

                  I know very few armies, if any, that would have acted with such a level of integrity under such conditions.

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                  • #99
                    I believe Israel is making a display of power. It was obvious that the countries surrounding it where gaining power which was very dangerous for the country, so a powerful attack and a victory would make clear that they are the strongest in the area. Bombing UN could be accidental, it could also be part of the mentioned display, declaring that not even the United Nations have power over the Israel nation.

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                    • One of the goals of this campaign from Israel's perspective is to deter terrorists and the nations supporting them, and to let them understand they should not underestimate any future response by Israel.

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                      • Originally posted by Oren Douek
                        Annan condemned the attack as being targeted and then announced an investigation into the matter. That's hypocrisy. The attack on the UN outpost was not targeted, and I'm sure that any neutral and unbiased investigation will prove that.
                        That's the pot calling the kettle black. You are pre-judging the result of the investigation and I have an uncomfortable feeling that you will decide how neutral and unbiased the investigation was by the conclusion that they draw.

                        I am well aware that Hezbollah is dug into civilian areas. I am also well aware that Israel attempts to minimize casualities by telling people they will be bombed. I would hope that nobody here is so naive as to think that the Israelis believe that all the civilians will evacaute upon being warned.

                        I am willing to concede, until we have a full investigation into the matter, that reports of Israeli attacks on refugees and ambulances may well be black propaganda. However, nothing excuses the use of cluster bombs, phosphorous, etc. (which has been publicly admitted by the Israeli military). They are illegal under international law and Israel should be roundly condemned for deploying them.

                        Finally, yes I know where they the get them from and that both the UK and US have also deployed the same munitions in recent conflicts. I believe they should be roundly condemned as well. As I said before, two wrongs do not make a right.

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                        • I heard it reported that the UN Peacekeepers, who were killed, sent e-mail and other communication saying the Hezbollah terrorists were near them, but they were trying to call off the attack by Israel by trying to get word to the UN that their post was targeted by Israel.

                          It must have all happened fast,in my opinion. unfortunately, serious mistakes are made in war.

                          I do not know how accurate that statement is though.


                          I do agree that certain weapons should not be used, especially in the case where there are mainly civilians in the battle area, but I also agree that Israel
                          has put foth great effort to minimize innocent deaths.
                          Last edited by lemec; 07-27-2006, 09:26 AM.

                          "With a deep, not-unhappy sigh, Elric prepared to do battle with an army." (Red Pearls)
                          - Michael Moorcock

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by johneffay
                            That's the pot calling the kettle black. You are pre-judging the result of the investigation and I have an uncomfortable feeling that you will decide how neutral and unbiased the investigation was by the conclusion that they draw.
                            I feel comfortable expressing my convictions freely and without much thought, not being the secretary general of the UN. If I were I would have been much more cautious. By the way, I found the "calling the kettle black" mention here funny for obvious reasons!

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                            • The Irish Foreign Minister was on BBC Radio 4's P.M. programme tonight. He was angry, alleging that the Israeli motive was to keep the U.N. observers holed up in their bunker so they couldn't report what was going on. He also said that the IDF action was at the least reckless, at worst deliberate. They've made formal protest to the Israeli government.
                              Arioch, aid me! Blood and souls for Arioch!

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                              • They probably will have to wait until the conflict is over to figure out if the incident was deliberate or not.

                                "With a deep, not-unhappy sigh, Elric prepared to do battle with an army." (Red Pearls)
                                - Michael Moorcock

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