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Israel/Lebanon Conflict (Split from 'Cyprus, Refugees...'

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  • Originally posted by Oren Douek
    I haven't seen the Arab and Muslim countries so enthusiastic, for example, to support a resolution against the genocide in Darfur (300,000 or more deaths according to some reports), which was committed by the Arab Janjaweed militias. But a resolution against a trifle like a parade in Jerusalem? Of course, unanimous support! What hypocrisy!
    'Hypocrisy' is also demanding that the entire civilian population of Southern Lebanon abandon their houses, land and possessions and evacuate the entire region. Then, slaughtering large numbers of those who remain (unable for one reason, or another to leave) and blaming it on Hezbullah for using them as human shields.

    And, yes the genocide in Darfur is a very vicious and serious crime against Humanity which should have motivated a proper, armed, World wide response (with, or without 'the Árab and Muslim countries' support), but hasn't.
    Last edited by Pietro_Mercurios; 07-30-2006, 02:32 PM.


    • I think Israel has shown extremely poor judgement in the way it strikes at its enemies this time. Okay, as I tried to point out earlier, one has to understand Israel's core issue - survival after two thousand years of persecution, but I am convinced that today's means are a 1000% more precise than in previous times and could be employed to carry out surgical strikes . The intensity of the destruction and number of casualties are appalling, and it is becoming increasingly difficult to explain. And already Hezbollah is emerging as the propagandistic winner (= moral winner) in most parts of the Arab world. This can't go on for long, I am very worried.

      As far as the N.Ireland comparisons are concerned: sorry, they are not valid. That conflict has completely different roots and is not between two completely different cultures with different languages and not fought with similar desperation.
      Google ergo sum


      • On a lighter note, Pietro, you might want to edit your previous post to quote my corrected and typo-free reply; I've managed to invent some new words in the original one


        • Originally posted by Oren Douek
          On a lighter note, Pietro, you might want to edit your previous post to quote my corrected and typo-free reply; I've managed to invent some new words in the original one


          • Thanks!


            • Originally posted by L'Etranger
              As far as the N.Ireland comparisons are concerned: sorry, they are not valid. That conflict has completely different roots and is not between two completely different cultures with different languages and not fought with similar desperation.
              The comparison would be with the unthinking sectarian hatred between what are two very different cultures in Northern Ireland. I think that Belfast was probably more segregated than Israel is at the height of the Troubles.

              Whether it is a fair comparison or not, I think that David's point that it was only when both sides realised they had more to gain by talking to each other than stringing out a pointless war that any progress was made is a good one. It would be nice to think this could happen between Isarael and its present enemies, but that seems rather optimistic.

              Much as I am appalled by Israel's ridiculously diproportionate actions, I have to say that I am even more appalled by the position that the US government and its lickspittle UK allies are taking. I am genuinely ashamed of Tony Blair.


              • Once it were absolutely guaranteed that Israel's right to exist is no longer questioned, then Israel would no longer respond in what you say is a disproportionate way.
                Yet, the more she does respond in force the less likely this guarantee seems to come. This is the bitter and tragic irony.
                Google ergo sum


                • I was watching the strife and agony of war on CashNabNews this morning as they removed the human remains from the strike on Qana. CNN has the most up to date reports of any media station in this area, with reporters conveying information directly from the war zones hourly. The terrible thing about this is the power that they have to sway a viewers opinion. A simple twist of words or a tiny morcel of information or image not displayed can give the whole story an entirely different meaning. I think that any provider of media has a huge responsibility to the entire world to provide a complete, unbiased, neutral account of all the facts when they are providing news to the public. I would imagine that there are immense political pressures from private interests, governments, military and tv producers on the content of the news that they provide us with. I could care less about all that propagandanistic bullshit, I want the truth. We all pay for cable services in one form or another and I think that entitles us to some form of dignity in regards to the context of the information that is transmitted into our homes. Ive been watching countless images of dead children for days now.
                  All have numbers. Coffin No. 104 has three names on it - Ali, Mohammed and Talib - all children. Nearby, Fatawi Horani is screaming and crying. Her granddaughter Marim, 15, was killed, she says, while trying to flee the fighting.
                  Three soldiers begin to struggle with a large body bag. Maggots are pouring from the bag - blood is seeping onto the ground. When they get the body into the coffin, the lid arches as doctors hammer nails into it.
                  It is a horrible situation granted, but the media is focusing on and engraining these images into everyones minds 24/7. The power of suggestion is so strong in these broadcasts that I have to filter out what I believe to be fact or fiction. We all have the option to avoid such media but CNN has the most updated, live news coverage of any other station around here, and Im stuck with it. It is a multi-billion dollar business that we all pay dearly for..But I dont believe that it is entirely unswayed?
                  Last edited by voilodian ghagnasdiak; 07-31-2006, 04:05 PM.


                  • Per David's request, I'm responding to Understandable here.

                    Originally posted by Understandable in another thread
                    Tell me something, phychicwarveteran, what is your handle on why this war over there in Lebanon and Israel is taking place? What do you think that it would take for this war to end? Do you think that the war over there will come to an end and do you think it will come over here and infect us, Americans? I was wondering what your take was on this stuff that is going on in our world.
                    I think it's an age-old conflict that will never end as long as there are people who insist to the point of violence that their religious belief is the only right one. This is the Fundamentalist Zealot to which I was referring in the other thread. They're scary people -- regardless of what name they have for God -- and the root of the entire problem. As far as this applies to Israel and Lebanon, it's all right there in history, but let me know if there are specific points you want to discuss.

                    Re: the religious aspect (from previous thread). It's ridiculous for a Christian to look at this conflict or any other as a sign of the 'End Times'. The Bible makes it clear, twice, that it's silly to do so (cf. Matthew 24:36 and Mark 13:32).

                    As far as affecting us here in the States, it already does (article here). And it could get a lot worse.

                    All the people that you made in your image,
                    See them fighting in the street,
                    Because they can't make opinions meet,
                    About God...
                    --XTC, Dear God
                    "Wounds are all I'm made of. Did I hear you say that this is victory?"
                    --Michael Moorcock, Veteran of the Psychic Wars


                    • Here's an intriguing extract from a conversation between two muslim clerics:

                      Al-Amin: How can you be a martyrdom-seeker, while targeting peaceful and innocent civilians?
                      Al-Jozo: Some of the martyrdom operations in Palestine have targeted civilians – soldiers as well as civilians. A Palestinian who lives on his land and is punished undeservingly does not distinguish between civilians... He views them all as Zionists.
                      Al-Amin: He may not distinguish, but Allah does.

                      Al-Amin: One of the reasons for the rise in acts of vengeance may be the occupation. The Israeli occupation of Palestine, its inhumane actions against civilians and peaceful people... The same occupation in Iraq, by America and Britain, and what happened in Afghanistan - All these are factors that naturally may cause anger among groups - not only among Muslims, but among all people who reject injustice and persecution, and who may turn, at some point, into time bombs. But I do not support justifying such acts with these reasons. I think we should put these reasons aside, because they do not deny free will and choice. This is still a person who wants, chooses, thinks, and is free. His ability to think and choose, and his culture should all prevent him from harming peaceful people.

                      What the Sheik said about oppression and persecution throughout history, in the past and present - we reject all this. This injustice by the British and the French is unacceptable. But you cannot respond to injustice with injustice. Even if the British mistreated us in the past - does this justify our mistreating them? Mistreating innocent civilians?

                      Islamic wartime morality states that when the Prophet Muhammad would send a military unit, he would tell them not to uproot a tree, not to kill an old man, a child, or a woman – they must be kept out of this. This principle was adopted even by UN resolutions – the principle of keeping civilians aside. Israel's injustice towards civilians is part of its nature, but it should not encourage me to perpetrate injustices on peaceful civilians anywhere in the world.

                      Al-Amin: You are exonerating them although they claimed responsibility.
                      Al-Jozo: That is nonsense. Nonsense. When bin Laden said "some of the good faithful men did this" – It's nonsense. He denied it at first and said he didn't carry out the operation.
                      Al-Amin: These are crimes that even a wild beast would not take pride in, and he calls them Jihad, struggle, and so on. The principle of who stands to lose or gain... I think it goes too far. Did the US gain anything from the bombings of 9/11? What did it gain? And who could have done it? I don't want to justify it, but at least there is a man and an organization who say "I did it."
                      Al-Jozo: Israel profited from the bombings.
                      Al-Amin: We should all stand against these abominations, so that these actions will be condemned, no matter who perpetrated them. This may be a considerable obstacle preventing such incidents from recurring.

                      A clip of this conversation is here:
                      Arma virumque cano.


                      • Another interesting translated arab tv clip which bears on the current situation:

                        A Lebanese political leader gives his views on Hezbollah and Syria:
                        Arma virumque cano.


                        • And a wonderfully powerful speech from a secularist arab.

                          Arma virumque cano.


                          • War Crimes

                            By Ben-Dror Yemini

                            So what exactly is the deal with the bombs and the civilian casualties? Are we the most evil element in the world, as the Evil and Stupidity Front claims, from Professor Noam Chomsky and Jose Saramago, through Ahmadinejad and Nasrallah, and up to some of the moviemakers and authors, among us too, that agree that Israel commits crimes against humanity?

                            A short historical reminder. This time we won’t say a word about Muslims butchering Muslims. We got used to it. The Muslims, especially in the eyes of the Left, are the retarded kids of the world. From them there is no need to demand responsibility, morality, adherence to international law. They are permitted to ignore all of these.

                            This time we will deal with the West. We won’t venture as far as the bombing of Dresden. We’ll head to recent history. It happened in 1999. Just 7 years ago. Milosevic irritated the Free World when he tried to take control of Kosovo. NATO started bombing. Following is an incomplete list of the injuries; just the civilian ones.

                            On April 12th – 12 killed in a bombing of a civilian train; on April 14th – 70 refugees are killed in a “hunt for warriors”. NATO forces admit that they find it hard to estimate the number of casualties; April 27th – 16 civilians are killed when two missiles are diverted from their course; April 28th – A stray missile lands in a peaceful neighborhood in Sophia, capital of Bulgaria. May 1st – 27 killed in a bombing of a bus on a bridge in Belgrade. According to other claims 47 were killed. All of them civilians; May 6th – 15 civilians are killed in the town of Nis in Yugoslavia; on May 7th – the Chinese embassy in Belgrade is erroneously bombed. 3 civilians were killed; May 13th – at least 100 civilians are killed in the village of Korisa. Burned bodies of kids are presented in the media worldwide. NATO’s spokesman announces that the bombings were against “legitimate military targets”; May 19th – NATO airplanes are bombing the Belgrade hospital. At least 3 patients end their lives; May 30th – 11 civilians are killed in the bombing of a bridge. They were on their way to the local market. On the same day the NATO bombers manage to bomb an old age home, causing the death of 20 of its residents; on May 31st another 11 civilians are killed in a bombing.

                            NATO, by the way, had spread leaflets telling the civilians that bridges are about to be bombed, but obviously that didn’t help. Sounds familiar? There was a general expression of sorrow for hurting innocents, but nobody even imagined a cease fire. The bombings continued. It took months, not days or weeks. The determination finally proved itself. Milosovic was forced to accept the international terms.

                            We’ve been in this situation before

                            Let’s continue to November 2004. The Ivory Coast Air Force attacked rebel concentrations. Since when does anybody care about black people? Well, to the bombers’ misfortune 9 French were also killed by accident. Soldiers. Not civilians. The French were angry. So angry that they wiped out the entire Ivory Coast Air Force and took control of the country’s airport. And that was only the beginning. When it was the natives’ turn to get angry, the French were sure to enforce order in a very aggressive way, killing 27 protesters in the process.

                            Now let’s go back and discuss the proportions. Milosovic didn’t announce that he intends to destroy all of Europe. The Ivory Coast wasn't intent on destroying France. And yet, the reactions of NATO and France were harsh and hard. The Security Council did not call for a cease fire. Au contraire. It was obvious that it’s necessary to get rid of the bad guy in the story. It took a lot of time. In the end he was subdued.

                            We should be sorry for every innocent life lost. The question is whether anybody has invented a formula in which it’s possible to battle evil without hurting the innocents. In NATO they haven't found that formula. Neither have they in France. When we get to Israel the rules are always altered. Israel is required to restrain itself. Why? After all Nasrallah is much more dangerous than Milosovic. The Hezbollah is not a guerilla organization. It’s an organization that possesses long-range missiles. In normal countries the state has an army. In the case of Lebanon, Hezbollah has a state. The Hezbollah controls Lebanon and Iran, in turn, controls the Hezbollah. It also develops nuclear weapons, and announces that it wants to wipe Israel off the map.

                            These are just declarations, the members of the Evil Front will tell us, those signed on various petitions with their stupidity and reconciliation. If we would just turn the other cheek, Ahmandinejad and Nasrallah will surely be nice and kind to us.

                            We’ve been in this situation before. We have the right to prevent the worst from happening again.
                            Last edited by Oren; 08-06-2006, 03:20 AM.


                            • Originally posted by Oren Douek

                              We’ve been in this situation before. We have the right to prevent the worst from happening again.
                              And, of course all those highly coloured lessons from history make the systematic slaughter of hundreds of civilians, men, women and children, the forcing of hundreds of thousands of others to flee the area on pain of death and the destruction of Lebanon's infrastructure, all all right.

                              We know that Israel is doing its best to minimalise casualties, because that's what they tell us. Just like Israel informed the UN that the targetted destruction of a UN observer's post and its four occupants was an unfortunate accident, even after the UN observers had tried 9 times to warn the Israel to stop shelling the post.

                              The use of cluster bombs and 2000lb 'bunkerbusters' on towns, villages and the suburbs of Lebanese cities is just unfortunate. Still, the need for 'Defensible Boundaries' in places like the South of Lebanon makes everything allowable.

                              Of course, those Arabs are all just like the evil Hamas and Hezbullah, that's why their fair game and of course, the West is just as bad, so that's alright.

                              Poor, plucky little Israel, with its vast stock of US funded, US provided, weapons, state of the art technology of war and its nuclear arsenal. The most powerful war machine in the region. How convenient, that Israel's struggle against its neighbours now comes under the catch all umbrella of the US and the West's 'War Against Terror'.

                              Once they've effectively turned South Lebanon into a no-man's land, they've even graciously requested that the rest of the 'Free World' come in and be the jam in their sandwich. Someone else to take pot shots at, when the evil Arabs aren't available, presumably.

                              And, of course, the evil, Islamofascist Arabs will learn from all this and go away, just like they did, back when they still believed in secular political processes and Israel invaded Lebanon, back in 1982. Back, before Hezbullah even existed.


                              • Originally posted by Oren Douek

                                This time we will deal with the West. We won’t venture as far as the bombing of Dresden. ...
                                Funny you should mention that, if only in passing:
                                The Dutch broadsheet newspaper, The Volkskrant (a sort of vaguely Catholic UK Guardian style paper) compared South Beiruit to Dresden, yesterday.
                                Zuid-Beiroet heeft nu aanblik Dresden

                                an onze verslaggever Stieven Ramdharie

                                AMSTERDAM - Het voetbalveldje, linksonder, heeft de Israëlische ‘bunkerbommen’ en duizendponders wonderbaarlijk genoeg overleefd. De wegen en gebouwen er omheen zijn echter veranderd in een maanlandschap. Zuid-Beiroet is, na 24 dagen oorlog een omgeploegd en desolaat stukje stad. Weggevaagd, omdat de Hezbollah-top er huist.

                                Koffiehuizen, bakkerijen, flats, ateliers, theehuizen, stomerijen, alles is weg. Veranderd in miljoenen kilo’s puin. De aanblik van de volkswijk, bastion van Hezbollah-leider Hassan Nasrallah cum suis, is er thans eentje van totale verwoesting.


                                "South Beiruit now has the look of Dresden

                                AMSTERDAM - The football field, bottom left [the front page before and after arial shot is missing from the website], has miraculously survived the Israeli 'bunker bombs' and thousand pounders. The roads and buildings around it have been completely transformed into a lunar landscape. South Beiruit, after 24 days of war has been ploughed under into a suburban wasteland. Swept away because it housed the Hizbullah top brass.

                                Coffee houses, bakeries, flats, workplaces, tea houses, laundrettes, everything is gone. Transformed into millions of kilos of rubble. The suburb, bastion of Hizbullah leader Hassan Nasrallah and supporters, looks totally flattened."

                                An unfortunate comparison, no doubt.