Buzzwords and values

[Doc]

On a different thread

Um, sorry to talk politics again but did anyone hear GWB talk about 'values' like 'democracy' and 'free enterprise' ? First time I heard they were values, much as I value these qualities in a society. Buzzword me.

What do we expect from someone who cannot pronounce nuclear?

I do find it interesting that the president who has framed himself as a protector of traditional values doesn't know what values are.

[Michael Moorcock]

I keep being reminded that when a poll asked Americans what freedoms they felt were being protected 'Freedom to shop' was on the list but not 'Freedom to elect a representative of your choice'... So maybe GWB is actually more representative of the people than, say, John Adams.

[Miqque]

Defining "values" (variable assessments of barter worth) against political philosophy (democracy) versus economic systems ("free enterprise", also a film about Trekkies) is quite useless coming from a man like GWB. It is rather like getting a penguin to discuss global warming.

Carter couldn't pronounce "nuclear", neither. Set a bad precedent.

[Doc]

Defining "values" (variable assessments of barter worth) against political philosophy (democracy) versus economic systems ("free enterprise", also a film about Trekkies) is quite useless coming from a man like GWB. It is rather like getting a penguin to discuss global warming.

A penguin would talk about global warming before Bush would.

[voilodian ghagnasdiak]

What would the dollar value be on NOT having an explosion in an American city in which countless innocent people are massacred?

[Michael Moorcock]

Reminds me of Philip Wylie's argument that the cost of peace is about the same as the cost of war, but war's a lot easier to keep going... (Generation of Vipers which, for all it angered people re 'momism', has a lot to say that's still pertinent -- AND the guy co-wrote When Worlds Collide, not to mention Island of Lost Souls -- Dr Moreau -- and invented Superman...). He doesn't get the credit, I've always thought, he deserves in American letters. Went out of fashion and got marginalised, just like Tom Paine, too, for that matter. A recent review on a big book about the American Revolution points out that Paine, who had much to do with the success of the Revolution, including much of its dialectic, scarcely gets a mention, in spite of the fact that he joined the Continental Army and had a lot to do with reviving morale. Hell, some people think he did more to secure the American Revolution than the French...

[lemec]

part of the problem is having things like "Freedom to Shop" on the list. There are some things that should be taken seriously, it can be irritating when most of the country is only interested in themselves and the luxuries they can buy to elevate, in their own eyes, their importance in society. I see less and less of people who honour a scientist, even some clever architect or someone trying to help others etc. imo.


I think folk in America just gave up in the idea of electing our reps. So many say that it is useless to vote that it has become part of our culture not to vote. In some cases they may be right, but if people would get together and make sure there is no favoritism or corruption of the voting system, I think more people would get out there and vote for local representatives as well as the big choice of President.

I think we should eliminate parties at this point, before I thought more parties would be better, but if there are no Republicans , Democrats or other, maybe people would have to listen to what the candidate is saying.

Our Senators and Congressmen really latch on to those positions and keep them way too long, how can you have change when the same person gets elected again and again and they know they will get in, nobody ever runs against them that has a chance.

I never see regualr folk get in office either, why do we put up with a professional politician?

When is the last time you saw a person get in presidential office that had a regular career instead of being an owner of a million dollar company or their last job being govenor/senator? just because they already had political and some administration experience does not mean that they can run the country any better than someone who was not placed in government postions all their lives.

-just a thought.


all in all, I guess my point is, I think we first need to get our priorities straight, put our reps under the microscope, make certain they will take action according to what the majority of us want out of our government, we can't let them keep getting away with things we do not approve. We need out reps to really work for it. Job interviews that I go on are more intense, with my entire life being investigated, than anything our representatives have to endure.

Politicians love distractions, they can live high off the hog, abuse out Rights and still come out on top, while part of the population suffers, on many levels, especially the portion that is too distracted by the fact they don't know how they will eat from day to day, and the other part have other things on their mind other than pitching in and helping out, they are the ones distracted by the things the other side of the populace can not afford.


In modern age especially, all representatives should be made to answer to us every single day they are in office. If someone, for example, discards the company rules of the place they work for, they are immediately terminated or at least reprimanded depending on how far away they stray from the rules and job description, why then, is it not the same for Representatives?


I'm proabably wrong,

thanks,



-Lemec

[lemec]

Reminds me of Philip Wylie's argument that the cost of peace is about the same as the cost of war, but war's a lot easier to keep going... (Generation of Vipers which, for all it angered people re 'momism', has a lot to say that's still pertinent -- AND the guy co-wrote When Worlds Collide, not to mention Island of Lost Souls -- Dr Moreau -- and invented Superman...). He doesn't get the credit, I've always thought, he deserves in American letters. Went out of fashion and got marginalised, just like Tom Paine, too, for that matter. A recent review on a big book about the American Revolution points out that Paine, who had much to do with the success of the Revolution, including much of its dialectic, scarcely gets a mention, in spite of the fact that he joined the Continental Army and had a lot to do with reviving morale. Hell, some people think he did more to secure the American Revolution than the French...

ya, there are alot of people who do not get the credit that they deserve.

I'm sure there are alot of folk that did not make the history books, that should have been credited as well,haha. :)

[Reinart der Fuchs]

A penguin would talk about global warming before Bush would.

That's cold.

[Michael Moorcock]

You could be right. The problem with abolishing parties is that power-groupings will always form so it might be just as well for us to be able to see them, rather than having to guess at who they are. I have always been inclined to vote, at least where it's possible, for the person not the party. In America, of course, I pay taxes but I have no representation, as I've often said. I'm going to start throwing someone's tea into Lake Austin if this goes on much longer. A serious problem is, as you say, the fact that you need to be rich in order to become a representative of the average income earner... My experience has always been that rich people just CAN'T imagine what it's really like to be poor. Yet at what point are we going to be able to get to the position where a person of average earnings is going to represent their constituency. At least the UK system tends to mean that MPs are drawn more from a broader social cross-section than they are in the US, though there's still a tendency for them to come from the professional classes, especially lawyers. However, I suspect that Labour's back-benchers, so many of whom voted against the war and against various of Blair's attempts to shift further towards economic liberalism, still represent a greater number of citizens than do American representatives. I still pin my faith on the likes of Dennis Kosinich, who seemed to be elected governor by the majority of the people he represents in Ohio. But how few there are! At least Bill Clinton came up from relative poverty, as did LBJ. GWB, though very good at pretending to be a blue-collar know-nothing, is drawn from the elite political class like his father. What amazes me is that he is so generally unrepresentative of the people. Of course the grey eminence of Cheney, he most powerful ever VP, looms always in the background. It's a pretty depressing time for democracy. Personally, I don't think that most of the current front-runners for replacement are much better. I'd go for a Clinton /Obama ticket, personally, but I suspect they wouldn't have much of a chance of success given that this country has still fewer women in Congress than most comparable democracies and fewer black representatives than there should be. Congress still represents far too small a cross section of the public. And therefore it is not likely to change the laws in favour of electing a wider cross section. Second Empire continues to be the model that I see everywhere, these days. Where's a Balzac for the times ?

[lemec]

Michael Moorcock wrote:

In America, of course, I pay taxes but I have no representation, as I've often said. I'm going to start throwing someone's tea into Lake Austin if this goes on much longer.

:) good one, ya, I vote that you should be allowed to vote! haha


Those are all good points, Mike.

Yeah, the present representatives are not going to vote for things that wil have a negative or a different effect on their lives, they like to keep things as is, in order to make that same money and keep their power. I still don't get how some representatives are empowered to vote for their own pay raises.

ahh, what I better place it would be if we had rep. choices from a wider cross section of the public, as you say.

I never bought GWB's sawing down trees on tv either. haha It's obviously not his normal environment, they should show what they really do in their lives, not what they like to pretend. That sort of show is still effective it seems. I forget who it was in the U.S. who first pretended to be a "man of the people" rather than the shrewd politician that he was, both canditates were of the city and lead rich political lives, but the one who provided the image of a country worker was the one who won the election. hehe. (it took me way too many words to say that. :o I get carried away.)

The UK and other nations do seem more advanced in this area, even though the United States is always the one to talk about free elections and freedom. ;)

I think the elites just figured out how to work the system, you can call the government whatever you want in name, but in practice, they use their power for something different.

I wonder how far the U.S. will go before it either starts over again from scratch or does become something other than a democracy?

[Doc]

That's cold.

Boo!!

[Doc]

I never bought GWB's sawing down trees on tv either. haha It's obviously not his normal environment, they should show what they really do in their lives, not what they like to pretend. That sort of show is still effective it seems. I forget who it was in the U.S. who first pretended to be a "man of the people" rather than the shrewd politician that he was, both canditates were of the city and lead rich political lives, but the one who provided the image of a country worker was the one who won the election. hehe. (it took me way too many words to say that. :o I get carried away.)

I hate to be too petty, but...

How much brush is there to clear on Bush's Crawford ranch? That is always what the media shows him doing. I realize it is to reinforce that "regular guy" image. I understand selling an image, but what bothers me is when people are uncritical of it. When he was supposedly helping Habitat for Humanity, the clips showed him using a hammer like a three-year-old. The clips would look silly next to those of Jummy Carter actually building houses...

Of course, too many people choose image over substance. It is easier than thinking.

[lemec]

I hate to be too petty, but...

How much brush is there to clear on Bush's Crawford ranch? That is always what the media shows him doing. I realize it is to reinforce that "regular guy" image. I understand selling an image, but what bothers me is when people are uncritical of it. When he was supposedly helping Habitat with Humanity, the clips showed him using a hammer like a three-year-old. The clips would look silly next to those of Jummy Carter actually building houses...

Of course, too many people choose image over substance. It is easier than thinking.

ya, really. oncce something is cleared of debris, it's pretty much cleared for a very long time.

same goes for things that politicians claim they need extra federal money for, if they get one figure of money to repair things one year, why do they need an equal amount or more to do the same projects the following year?

images can be used the other way around too, such as showing the oppsition in a bad light, that is why it's bad to focus on buying into those images so much, there is no real content there. ;)

ya, Carter has way more credibility in the area of contruction. plus, he truly does it to help people, not to just get on the news. after all he has been a former President for many years.

to be fair to the Cosmic Balance-I have to admit that John Kerry did look out of his element when he suddenly had to go hunting in order to compete with Bush. I'd say that was a bad move, you just can't play the other guy's game sometimes, he should never had try to win in the image department, just stick to the issues. :)

and to take it a step further, they all look silly while trying to pose for a camera while attempting look sincere at whatever work/project they are trying to sell. They all need new public relations team

[Michael Moorcock]

A friend tells me with some amusement that the 'ranch' at Crawford was a mere dairy farm before Bush bought it...