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UK ID cards

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  • UK ID cards

    OK,

    Is anyone getting active over the 'compulsory finger-printing of citizens' act?

    I notice the spineless toady sychophants they call the parliamentary Labour party voted in line with the whip again.

    Bunch of cattle. They'd vote for their own executions if they thought it'd help their careers.

    anyone know of any petitions, demos etc?
    \"It got worse. He needed something to cure himself. What? he asked. M-A 19 he answered.\"

  • #2
    What bugs me is not so much just the card, but the biometric database behind it. One 'new' Labour clone laughably stated last night that this was necessary to guard against a 'Big Brother' society! The bones of poor Mr Orwell must be on a constant spin cycle these days.
    \"...an ape reft of his tail, and grown rusty at climbing, who yet feels himself to be a symbol and the frail representative of Omnipotence in a place that is not home.\" James Branch Cabell

    Comment


    • #3
      I just think its a terrible waste of money which could be spent better. Plus I don't like the idea of the whole thing either, it certainly does have a rather 'Big Brother' feel to it. And I have heard they will be quite expensive to get should you misplace/lose/burn yours. I really am not looking forward to having an ID card, but I don't know what we can do. There doesn't really seem to be much organised resistance to them that I am aware of. Maybe its time to start the old propaganda campaign...

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by HawkLord
        I just think its a terrible waste of money which could be spent better.
        Yep - our money!!!:x I can think of a billion ways of spending it better...

        Originally posted by HawkLord
        There doesn't really seem to be much organised resistance to them that I am aware of.
        You could do worse than looking here:

        http://www.no2id.net/

        It seems that once again we're relying on the unelected chamber to throw a spanner in the works. Democracy? Doncha luvvit? :?
        \"...an ape reft of his tail, and grown rusty at climbing, who yet feels himself to be a symbol and the frail representative of Omnipotence in a place that is not home.\" James Branch Cabell

        Comment


        • #5
          No2ID seems to be a good place to start, but we shouldn't rely on presure groups to do all our lobbying.

          The BBC have some good info here

          http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/actionnetwork/A2319176

          I used the Public Whip (http://www.publicwhip.org.uk/) to find out how my MP voted in the debate ("Mooooo,what Tony said"), and I'll shortly be writing to her, so that she can put another cross in the "against" box
          \"It got worse. He needed something to cure himself. What? he asked. M-A 19 he answered.\"

          Comment


          • #6
            MA, or somebody else from Blighty, please enlighten us on what is going on!

            Our ID cards in Germany and France are just a sort of light-weight passport that fits into your wallet and helps identification - also if you need to pick up some registered mail or a new license plate for your car and whatever. Younger people might need it to prove they're over 18 for late nights at discos. There aren't a lot of data on them (hitherto) that might worry us, like bio-data. The new passports that will be introduced because of US pressure with bio-metric information and who knows what are a lot more to worry about ...
            But tell us what the worries and interests are in Britain, why is it an issue?
            I think I heard something like the ID card being horrendously expensive (ours is something like 15 Euros, the very first one being free which you can get at the age of sixteen).

            B-t-w German passports do NOT show your religion or profession for historic experiences when people were discriminated ... A young Israeli once showed me his ID card and it stated even the ethnic group!
            Google ergo sum

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by LEtranger
              But tell us what the worries and interests are in Britain, why is it an issue? I think I heard something like the ID card being horrendously expensive (ours is something like 15 Euros, the very first one being free which you can get at the age of sixteen).
              Yes, many of our friends on the continent are suprised by the big fuss over ID cards.

              Some people are bothered about the cost, both to them personally and in the usage of their tax money. This has been a good way to get people into the debate, but the real issue with the card is the data it will hold.
              • a scan of the citizens Iris
              • a complete set of the citizens finger-prints
              • 'facial recognition' data on the citizen


              In this article a BBC reporter goes to get a trial ID card:

              http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3556720.stm

              Of these, only the finger-prints are any use. Iris scans only work on light-colored eyes and have difficulty recognising people with long eyelashes (like Arabs). Facial recognition technology is a joke. I've not heard of a system with a better than 40% sucess rate in trials, and anyone whose travelled a bit can tell you that human faces are not unique enough to use as a primary data key anyway.

              In the UK, only the fingerprints of criminals are stored in any form. Most UK citizens do not want to be treated like criminals


              B-t-w German passports do NOT show your religion or profession for historic experiences when people were discriminated ... A young Israeli once showed me his ID card and it stated even the ethnic group!
              In pakhistan they even show what type of muslim you are! A group that attacks Shia muslims recently attacked a bus where they chose targets by checking peoples ID cards to see who was a Shia.
              \"It got worse. He needed something to cure himself. What? he asked. M-A 19 he answered.\"

              Comment


              • #8
                From my point of view as a public service worker, what upsets me is that this will be used as a means to deny essential healthcare and other rights to persons deemed 'illegal'.

                It will also be used for political repression. There seems to be a naive view around that the State will always be controlled by good guys (I don't even believe it is at present) and, saddest of all, that "if you haven't done anyting wrong, you haven't got anything to worry about".

                Well, try telling that to some people in Guantanamo Bay.

                I've signed the pledge: http://www.pledgebank.com/refuse

                This reminds me of the poll tax; bad news for Blair!
                \"...an ape reft of his tail, and grown rusty at climbing, who yet feels himself to be a symbol and the frail representative of Omnipotence in a place that is not home.\" James Branch Cabell

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by LEtranger
                  MA, or somebody else from Blighty, please enlighten us on what is going on!

                  ...tell us what the worries and interests are in Britain, why is it an issue?
                  The LSE (London School of Economics) released a report on Monday highlighting '10 key uncertainties' about ID cards. (This summary is from the BBC website, but you can read the LSE's report here.)
                  1. How much will the scheme cost the UK?

                  Our 'best case' scenario is that it will cost around آ£10.6 billion (very roughly آ£170 per card and passport) though some of this cost may be absorbed into government budgets and passed on through tax. If the scheme is fully integrated into government IT systems this cost may increase considerably. Worst case: آ£19.2 billion, with a proportionately higher unit price per person.

                  2. How often will the cards or the biometrics on them need to be renewed?

                  Best case: once in 10 years for everyone. Worst case: once in five years for everyone. Median: some people (for instance, some elderly or ill people) will need to renew their biometrics every 5 years or more; some others will need to renew cards because of personal circumstance changes; but other people can go 10 years.

                  3. How often will ID cards be lost or damaged and need to be replaced?

                  Best case: Loss and damage will be the same as for passports. Worst case: More problems than with passports because ID cards are in use much more.

                  4. How difficult will it be to initially enrol people on the ID card scheme?

                  Best case: People flock to enrol speedily and there is no tail-end of resisters. Worst case: People need extensive chasing, some people resist cards to the end, and enrolment is slow.

                  5. How straightforward is it to verify people's identities and to enforce compliance with ID cards? How costly will it be to make corrections and re-enrol people in the ID card scheme?

                  Best case: No verification problems, few corrections, simple re-enrolment. Worst case: Significant problems with verifications, more corrections, difficulties checking other databases; enforcement is more costly because of citizen resistance, and re-enrolment is somewhat more complex.

                  6. To what extent will the public accept the government's proposals?

                  Best case: people come to embrace the government's scheme, seeing benefits in having an ID card backed by a Register. Worst case: a mass campaign of non-cooperation that creates unbearable pressures on the system with consequent financial cost.

                  7. To what extent will there be civil liberties and privacy implications in the scheme?

                  Best case: government is able to maintain strict protection of data on the register. Cards use secure technologies to limit the threat of data misuse. Worst case: the scheme suffers from "function creep" to the extent that a card becomes an internal passport without which a person cannot function.

                  8. Will disabled people suffer hardship and discrimination through the system's operation?

                  Best case: government recognizes the challenges that face many disabled people in relation to biometrics, and incorporates technology to meet and support these problems. Worst case: to rein in costs the government buys cheap technology that inherently disadvantages disabled people, resulting in severe day-to-day problems for them, for instance, possible denial of service and loss of dignity.

                  9. Are there any security concerns about the system?

                  Best case: the security of personal data remains much as it is in the current environment. Worst case: if intruders or hackers could compromise security, then large numbers of identity records are at risk.

                  10. Is there a risk that new kinds of ID fraud could arise from cards coming into pervasive use?

                  Best case: No new ID fraud. Worst case: Some new, high tech ID fraud develops, with greater costs for those citizens affected. Successful identity theft of a person's biometric data would mean that their fingerprints or iris scans are permanently in the hands of criminals, with little hope of revoking them.
                  To put this in to some context, recently in the UK, we've switched from 'signing' our debit/credit card slips in shops to a 'Chip & Pin' system, where we enter our PIN to authorise the card instead. When this was introduced we were told it was to combat credit card fraud, but since shops which don't use C&P but rely on old-fashioned signatures (and we won't discuss how much easier it is to key in someone else's PIN than it is to forge their signature) are liable for any fraudulent transactions, some have claimed that C&P was introduced because the banks were desperate to transfer liablity for fraud away from themselves, where it had been previously.

                  So the paranoid among us are asking, what is the 'real' reason that the UK Govt want to make us carry bio-metric ID cards? :?
                  _"For an eternity Allard was alone in an icy limbo where all the colours were bright and sharp and comfortless.
                  _For another eternity Allard swam through seas without end, all green and cool and deep, where distorted creatures drifted, sometimes attacking him.
                  _And then, at last, he had reached the real world – the world he had created, where he was God and could create or destroy whatever he wished.
                  _He was supremely powerful. He told planets to destroy themselves, and they did. He created suns. Beautiful women flocked to be his. Of all men, he was the mightiest. Of all gods, he was the greatest."

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Wow, that's a good summary of the counter arguments... thanks.

                    Originally posted by demos99

                    So the paranoid among us are asking, what is the 'real' reason that the UK Govt want to make us carry bio-metric ID cards? :?
                    The story of a certain president in a South American country springs to mind: His wife's family had great shares in the textile industry, and so the government decreed that new and different school uniforms had to be worn each year ...
                    Google ergo sum

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Well, DevilChicken doesn't seem to be having much fun with biometrics at the moment either, and I fear that this may be a taste of what all UK residents will have to contend with, just to stay in "our own country":

                      [broken link]

                      There's also the concern, voiced on one radio show I heard the other day, that to recover the costs of the cards, certain pieces of information will be sold off to interested parties. 8O

                      At least a bar code on the forehead would look cool... is there anyway I can lobby for that over ID cards?
                      Last edited by Rothgo; 04-09-2010, 11:23 AM.
                      "That which does not kill us, makes us stranger." - Trevor Goodchild

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by DeeCrowSeer
                        At least a bar code on the forehead would look cool... is there anyway I can lobby for that over ID cards?
                        Aha! The Mark of the Beast! :twisted:
                        \"...an ape reft of his tail, and grown rusty at climbing, who yet feels himself to be a symbol and the frail representative of Omnipotence in a place that is not home.\" James Branch Cabell

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Mikey_C
                          Originally posted by DeeCrowSeer
                          At least a bar code on the forehead would look cool... is there anyway I can lobby for that over ID cards?
                          Aha! The Mark of the Beast! :twisted:
                          And then everybody would have one. It'd just end up looking naff.

                          At least the UK Government decided against clipping yellow, plastic, RFID tags through everyones' left ear, at the comittee stage.

                          Too easy, then, to mistake people for other forms of livestock. 8)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by DeeCrowSeer
                            Well, DevilChicken doesn't seem to be having much fun with biometrics at the moment either, and I fear that this may be a taste of what all UK residents will have to contend with, just to stay in "our own country"
                            No, Dee, don't try to hole up in Dorset again. Paris is a "must"!
                            At least these worries are not a reason for you not to go to Paris (discussed in earlier threads ) as within most of continental EU they don't check your papers crossing the borders anymore. You often don't realized you've crossed a border, except that the flirtation habbits are different.

                            The new passports (not ID cards) we are now supposed to get in Germany with bio-metric data, we are told, are only required if you plan to travel to the USA without lengthy applications for a visa. You can travel everywhere else in the world with your ordinary papers. I'm sure though that there are groups among the politicians of most parties who would immediately follow the British example if it could only be "sold" to the public. Maybe flying a few Cessnas into our own (rather low) sky-scrapers would help to frighten the people enough ...? Oh, an ultra-light would probably be sufficient.
                            Google ergo sum

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by LEtranger
                              At least these worries are not a reason for you not to go to Paris (discussed in earlier threads ) as within most of continental EU they don't check your papers crossing the borders anymore. You often don't realized you've crossed a border, except that the flirtation habbits are different.
                              I remember on the (very) few occassions when I travelled outside the UK that practically the only time I ever had my passport checked was when I wanted to get back *into* the UK. The irony was/is that I, a natural-born UK resident, could be denied access to my own country without it, but a refugee/asylum-seeker/(insert derogatory name of choice) could always find a way to get in. :lol:

                              Another of the concerns about ID cards isn't the bio-metric data per se, I think people don't have an inherent problem having a bio-metric passport or driving licence (although maybe they do?) but it's the compulsory nature of having to have a bio-metric ID Card in the current proposal that disturbs people off.

                              Charles Clarke (the Home Secretary) has offered to cap the individual cost of ID cards, but they still have to be paid for somehow, and where will that money come from? Our taxes, that's where. So we're still going to end up paying the full whack, but the bulk will be taken off us in 'stealth' taxes, of which New Labour is so fond. It's this inability to be honest with the electorate which I think makes some of us paranoid about the Govt's motivations.
                              _"For an eternity Allard was alone in an icy limbo where all the colours were bright and sharp and comfortless.
                              _For another eternity Allard swam through seas without end, all green and cool and deep, where distorted creatures drifted, sometimes attacking him.
                              _And then, at last, he had reached the real world – the world he had created, where he was God and could create or destroy whatever he wished.
                              _He was supremely powerful. He told planets to destroy themselves, and they did. He created suns. Beautiful women flocked to be his. Of all men, he was the mightiest. Of all gods, he was the greatest."

                              Comment

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