Prostitution

[Rymdolov]

This is a slightly old piece of news and perhaps this topic has been discussed here before, but nevertheless: LINK

Comments, anyone?

I'm not sure if the Telegraph is a reliable source, btw. Perhaps someone from the UK could fill me in?

[Jules]

You'd be looking for someone from Germany rather than the UK. I'd imagine there is some truthful apsect to the story but it is more based on a local peculiar interpretation than a global truth, as is the usual case with Euro-Stories.

[mordenkainen]

It's a spoof. it exaggerates greatly the consequences of the law.

[Mikey_C]

Yeek! True or not, it makes you think about the consequences of prostitution being 'normalised'.

The Telegraph is as right-wing as hell (known as 'The Deadly Torygraph') - but it is a "quality" rag. It does however take a prurient interest in sexual matters, and was once notorious for carrying more rape stories than 'The Scum'.

This also shows the inhumanity of forcing people to take employment: has anyone got any views on the 'citizens income' (as proposed by the Greens in Britain).

[DeeCrowSeer]

This also shows the inhumanity of forcing people to take employment: has anyone got any views on the 'citizens income' (as proposed by the Greens in Britain).

Well, I'll risk the fury of decent tax-paying folk by saying I'm in favour of it. I recall Oscar Wilde promoting a similar notion in one of his essays (The Soul of Man Under Socialism, perhaps?) and I dug it then too. I'm speaking of course from the point of view of someone who believes that "artists" can provide valuable (often vital) contributions to society, but are often unable to do so because they are rudely sent off to do day jobs when they could be lying around feeling inspired. :) Actually, a number of bands in Britain formed after members met while collecting their unemployment benefits (I'm sure about Portishead, and I'm shaky-sure on a few others). There are supposed to be funds and such for artists to apply for, but I was turned down flat by The Prince's Trust when I wanted to start designing T-Shirts to sell. Does the world really need more funny T-shirts? Probably not... but the advisors were all over some students who wanted to run a clothes store, which is fair enough, I just wonder what the students would be selling in their store, if the PT don't also support people who want to create new clothes? Presumably, imported items.

Sorry, I'm ranting again.

Obviously prostitution is a worst case scenario, in terms of employment, but even if the story isn't true then it does have a ring of truth... if prostitution were a legal occupation, then it's feasible that people might still end up working in that field against their wills. Personally I had moral objections to working in Marketing, but they don't really care about "moral objections" at the job centre. They don't seem to care what skills or interests you have either. It's just about taking statistics out of one column and fitting them in to another column. It's easy to brag about unemployment rates, but if everyone is in the wrong job, or the wrong position, then how does that help in the long run? And what about a country's cultural health and artistic growth? Are they factors? Should I shut up before everyone who's reading this, and has a job, starts screaming bloody murder at the screen? Probably.

[L'Etranger]

I am a little surprised I didn't hear or read of the case here. It would have caused some commotion, I'm sure. But just because I haven't heard this it needn't be a fake.
Who owns the "Telegraph", by-the-way?

[Mikey_C]

I'm speaking of course from the point of view of someone who believes that "artists" can provide valuable (often vital) contributions to society, but are often unable to do so because they are rudely sent off to do day jobs when they could be lying around feeling inspired. :)

I used to be what was termed 'a government artist' (Ie. I drew the dole) - but seriously that's a good point - of course people could work on developing their 'human capital' in a variety of ways, formal and informal. The main thing for the taxpayer's point of view (and of course they'd receive CI as well) is that it would remove the 'poverty trap' - the disincentive for people to go out and create wealth because they're on means-tested benefits.

I'm not sure how this would effect wages, but I'm very much against the approach to working families tax credit which is currently used - which effectively subsidises and reward low-pay employers.

Anyone still wanting to seethe might like to read this: http://www.citizensincome.org/faqs/fq_0017562.shtml

[Rymdolov]

About "citizens income": It's one of those things that I'm in favour of on principle, but which I think would have to wait until a lot of other stuff have been sorted out. The main benefit of it would be, I think, that employers would have to offer a decent wage and/or working conditions. No-one would be desperate enough to accept a job with a low wage AND lousy working conditions, which is the way it often is today (unless in a country with no unemployment, if such a country exists).

Today, of course, it works the other way. People are supposed to be desperate, in order to keep wages on a low level. A document leaked from an unemployment office here in "the Land of Honour and Heroes", which stated that the actual task of unemployment offices are to pressure people into applying for (virtually non-existent) jobs, rather than finding jobs for them. All to keep inflation and wages down. Unemployment is good for employers...

And by this I have gone off topic in my own thread. I knew it would happen some day. :)

[mordenkainen]

it's a spoof, really. had a debate about it some months ago on another board. the story made enough noise for a german government official to publicly deny it.

re: citizen's income, my own position is much more radical...

[silverhand]

I am a little surprised I didn't hear or read of the case here. It would have caused some commotion, I'm sure. But just because I haven't heard this it needn't be a fake.
Who owns the "Telegraph", by-the-way?

My memory may be dodgy but didn't Conrad Black own the Telegraph? Or am I thinking of some other corrupt right-wing thief?

[Jules]

The man with the Bond villain name, Conrad Black, was forced to sell the Telegraph amongst accusations of improprietary (basically, using Telegraph money to fund private jets, etc) - although the nominal 'owner' there were other investors who regarded this as a misuse of funds.

It might now be owned by the Barclay Brothers. Of course, this story has been repeated in several papers, each with their own angle on the scandal.

Citizens income - as someone who pays over 1000 quid a month on tax/NI/council tax (about $1800 for you Americans) I welcome the idea - there are plenty on both Left and Right who are for it, that you'd think it would be a no-brainer. It both reduces poverty and increases the incentive to work. Of course it may be that it only looks like it works if you redistribute the existing pie - the afterwards pie will look very different (they will have to offer more money for people to do undignified menial work - the stuff people are effectively forced into at the moment, while salaries in attractive jobs that people want to work at would tend towards zero, depending on how attractive the job was).

The other problem, of course, is that we've opened the hellmouth of international competition, which is slowly eroding the European social model (and putting the next generation of Americans and Europeans in hock to vast export deficits. Well, that's if you believe America wouldn't just refuse to pay if things got really bad - I remember a radio program who said, 'which customer does the bank keep happy - the guy with 50 quid in a current acount or the one that owes them a million

I was always amazed when looking at the breakdown of my Council Tax in Cardiff, how much was spent on collection and rebates, and that's just on a local tax, that you'd think a simpler system would be much more efficient.

Dee - given that these days you can print T-shirts in batches of 1, surely you can do them on-line / e-bay, etc, and just make em as the orders come in to start off with? Can you do them in Chinese and help balance the debt?

[DeeCrowSeer]

In a tiny off-topic lay-by...

Dee - given that these days you can print T-shirts in batches of 1, surely you can do them on-line / e-bay, etc, and just make em as the orders come in to start off with?

Oh yes, these days technology has certainly caught up with my megalomania... the Prince's Trust rejection was years ago... back when the internet only came in black and white. Now, as PWV pointed out in a previous thread, you can just put your designs on websites such as Zazzle, and let them handle the actual printing/delivery. Hurrah!

Can you do them in Chinese and help balance the debt?

Sadly I don't know any Chinese, although I have read two whole books on Taoism, so I'm fully qualified now to mercilessly exploit it now... except I still say "Tow" in my head, when I should say "Dow". Silly Westerner! :x

We now return you to your regularly scheduled topic. Sorry.

[Jules]

Doh