So france says "NON"?

[Theocrat]

Seems like the french have had their fill of Chirac and his goons!
What do you guys think of the election turn-out?

Spain seems to be more toward a 'yes' now but i wonder if that is just wishfull thinking?

[Mikey_C]

Tres Bien!




for Chirac.



Now, of course, they'll have to re-run the whole thing again


and again


and again


until the French get it right....



See, you've got me started !!!

[HawkLord]

Good on them I say!

[Theocrat]

I read somewhere about a paragraph (forgot name) where a company from another EU country can use the same laws et al they had in their original country. "Solidarity" my ass! Why are neoliberals stating "solidarity" to be in one of their many slogans?

[L'Etranger]

The construction of Europe is probably going to be a chain of crisis-solving. And why not? The "non" is a setback, but not a death blow. Mr. Bush will be celebrating though, that 400 million people will take longer to become a factor to reckon with.
It is a pity that the French had to punish Chirac here and didn't wait for an occasion of more local significance. And who has actually read the constitution draft besides politicians?
I cannot say I am all disappointed, because the result can force governments to explain the intentions of each paragraph better, so that through understanding and conviction we really adopt our very own constitution.
I suspect very much that many younger people who didn't experience the war and the many problems after it and also can't remember the terrible, deadly rift through Europe caused by the Iron Curtain tend to say "no", because they don't "feel" the advantages...

[Mikey_C]

And who has actually read the constitution draft besides politicians?

Me (sad trainspotter that I am :oops: )

Bush would like it. It commits Europe to neoliberalism. It amuses me in a grim kind of way that new Labour politicians are trying to make a nationalistic issue of it's 'anglo-saxon' nature. Only people familiar with economic jargon would realise this means the Thatcherite freemarket shite we thought we had rejected by electing a Labour government in 1997. "We're so proud to be British and let transnational corporations trample all over us!"

Ironically, the German system of the 'codetermination' of industry by management and unions was actually set up by the British after WW2, so that German society would not degenerate into fascism again. The 'European Social Model' is not so foreign after all!

[L'Etranger]

And who has actually read the constitution draft besides politicians?

Me (sad trainspotter that I am :oops: )

Would you incidently know a website where one could read it all?

[Theocrat]

Ironically, the German system of the 'codetermination' of industry by management and unions was actually set up by the British after WW2, so that German society would not degenerate into fascism again. The 'European Social Model' is not so foreign after all!

We seem to be falling into the cesspool of fascism again. Albeit slowly.
I see nationalistic resurgences appearing here around scandinavia.
"Scandinavia".... Now that's a word i don't hear any more..

[M-A_19]

And who has actually read the constitution draft besides politicians?

Every French voter was sent a 160 page summary of the 360 page document.

one in four French claimed to have browsed the summary document, one in ten claimed to have read it in full

this claims to be the full text (I didn't read it to check)
http://europa.eu.int/constitution/futurum/constitution/index_en.htm


I think its very distressing that everybody now thinks that some new Europe following their ideas will arise. About the only doctrine you can't hear being tossed around at the moment is the doctrine of comprimise :(

[Mikey_C]

Can there be a compromise between a knife and a wound?

PS I've just read this

if the European left really wants to keep itself distinct from the European right (and parts of it clearly do not, but that’s another matter), it surely must, sooner rather than later, come up with at least an outline for a positive reform of the EU in the direction that the left believes it ought to go (albeit without illusions, to quote an over-used but highly relevant phrase). Otherwise the left risks becoming - or, if not becoming, being decisively portrayed as - a wholly negative force, undeniably skilled at pointing out what is wrong with the EU in particular, and the neoliberal consensus in general, but fatally weakened by being - or, again, seeming - utterly impractical about what to do next.

Fair enough, eh?

[Theocrat]

Why 300 pages? Does it have to be that complex and overexpansive?
Diffusing texts filled with inconsistencies and dubble meanings?

F**k the neo-liberals!

Many in sweden want to leave the 'Union' all together.
I wonder what might be the effect of that happening?
And even the liberals here seem to want a 'democratic' vote on the Constitution. And that is promising and is linked to their idea of "choice" once again. Sober Liberals seem to be wanting more democracy now than before.. :)

[Mikey_C]

Why 300 pages? Does it have to be that complex and overexpansive?

You're only supposed to read the first page, with all the pompous guff about 'civilisation' and 'democracy' - "peace, justice and solidarity" :lol: :!:


The rest is for the businessmen.


The shortened version of what we really need to know to make an informed choice is here:

The power to privatise - Article III-147 gives the EU powers to enforce privatisation in any area of economic activity: “A European framework law shall establish the measures in order to achieve the liberalisation of a specific service.�

A threat to public services - Article I-15 gives the EU new powers to
�co-ordinate’ economic, employment and social policies. Article III-210 lists
the almost unlimited areas of social policy where the EU will have the right to �support and complement’ the activities of member states.

Unelected in charge - Article I-26 confirms the sole right of the
unelected European Commission to draw up new laws and Article III-188
orders member states “not to seek to influence the….European Central
Bank�, the unelected body that decides economic policy for the eurozone.

Anti-union laws to remain - Article II-88 states that workers have rights
to collective bargaining and to take strike action only “in accordance with
national laws and practices�.

Threat to civil liberties - Article II-112 allows “limitations� of basic
human rights “if they are necessary and genuinely meet objectives of general interest recognised by the Union�. Article II-114 forbids any political campaigning to reverse any aspects of the Charter of Fundamental Rights.

Militarisation - Article I-15 states: “Member states shall actively and
unreservedly support the Union’s common foreign and security policy in a
spirit of loyalty and mutual solidarity.�

Big Brother - Article III-276 gives the EU the right to extend the
“structure, operation, field of action and tasks� of its police force, whose
agents, like other EU officials, enjoy immunity from criminal prosecution.

Death penalty - Article I-62 says no-one shall be condemned to the
death penalty. However, article “Explanations� allows the death penalty “in
respect of acts committed in time of war or of imminent threat of war�.

http://www.tuaeuc.org.uk/tuaeuc.pdf

Come on you Dutch! :D

[Theocrat]

[quote="Mikey_C"]

Why 300 pages? Does it have to be that complex and overexpansive?

You're only supposed to read the first page, with all the pompous guff about 'civilisation' and 'democracy' - "peace, justice and solidarity" :lol: :!:


The rest is for the businessmen.


I doubt they will allow any concessions to the general european population. This reeks of fascism or a similar line towards it.
Anyone can see the newspeak going on. When i heard the laughable line of "solidarity".

Lets hope Hayek was right about the future of the EU.

[L'Etranger]

You're only supposed to read the first page, with all the pompous guff about 'civilisation' and 'democracy' - "peace, justice and solidarity" :lol: :!:


The rest is for the businessmen.
shortened quote

Thanks, Mikey_C for the lengthy reading material. I must admit I trusted the move too blue-eyedly and will take a look at these materials and others for myself and perhaps reconsider. What is important, however, if the draft topples that the ultra right-wingers and all the xenophobic hate-mongers don't get a chance to claim it as their victory.

[Theocrat]

I have a guy here who says that some of these articles don't exist and that only one of them is right.

Article III-147: "Is just about science and research and the mobility of those factions. And space research."

Article I-15: "Is just about foreign policy and the member country support of it and not about the coordination of welfare."

Article III-210: "Same as above. Only a little more refined."

Article I-26: "Is about how to choose a commision and not about creating new laws."

Article III-188: "Is not about the ECB. Only about no unnecessary tolls".

Article II-88: "This article doesn't even exist..."

Article II-112: "Doesn't exist either!"

Article I-15 states: "Right!"

Article III-276: "Is not about immunity from
criminal prosecution. But about cessation of EU union membership rights" (?)

And

Article I-62: "Doesn't exist either!"

Maybe it's a humpty dumpty thing again?

The shortened version of what we really need to know to make an informed choice is here:

The power to privatise - Article III-147 gives the EU powers to enforce privatisation in any area of economic activity: “A European framework law shall establish the measures in order to achieve the liberalisation of a specific service.�

A threat to public services - Article I-15 gives the EU new powers to
�co-ordinate’ economic, employment and social policies. Article III-210 lists
the almost unlimited areas of social policy where the EU will have the right to �support and complement’ the activities of member states.



Unelected in charge - Article I-26 confirms the sole right of the
unelected European Commission to draw up new laws and Article III-188
orders member states “not to seek to influence the….European Central
Bank�, the unelected body that decides economic policy for the eurozone.

Anti-union laws to remain - Article II-88 states that workers have rights
to collective bargaining and to take strike action only “in accordance with
national laws and practices�.




Threat to civil liberties - Article II-112 allows “limitations� of basic
human rights “if they are necessary and genuinely meet objectives of general interest recognised by the Union�. Article II-114 forbids any political campaigning to reverse any aspects of the Charter of Fundamental Rights.

Militarisation - Article I-15 states: “Member states shall actively and
unreservedly support the Union’s common foreign and security policy in a
spirit of loyalty and mutual solidarity.�

Big Brother - Article III-276 gives the EU the right to extend the
“structure, operation, field of action and tasks� of its police force, whose
agents, like other EU officials, enjoy immunity from criminal prosecution.

Death penalty - Article I-62 says no-one shall be condemned to the
death penalty. However, article “Explanations� allows the death penalty “in
respect of acts committed in time of war or of imminent threat of war�.

http://www.tuaeuc.org.uk/tuaeuc.pdf

Come on you Dutch! :D