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  • #16
    Mostly, chimps fling poo. Hopefully humans are better sorts. It does take time and attention to see who the leader in any social situation might be (and it is often a woman, I ain't sexist). As for the alpha-male thing, that's an element, but not as prominant as it is in animals. We are talking about humans here, albeit politicians.

    And while we admire Mike, I have always been glad it is an interactive rather than fawning site. I like his opinions, and feel grateful for his time and attention.

    Have a great weekend!
    Miqque
    ... just another sailor on the seas of Fate, dogpaddling desperately ...

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Miqque
      And while we admire Mike, I have always been glad it is an interactive rather than fawning site. I like his opinions, and feel grateful for his time and attention.
      That was the one thing that struck a chord with me too. Not many people express that ability nowadays. He's just like 'one of us', and probably wants to keep it that way too. Interactivity is 'the' necessity for a more tolerant future world.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Miqque

        And while we admire Mike, I have always been glad it is an interactive rather than fawning site. I like his opinions, and feel grateful for his time and attention.
        I agree, Miqque!

        I also agree with you, Adlerian, where you point out that it is interactive on Mike's terms.

        However, I'll also add that I wouldn't hang out at a tribute site, nor would I respect the people at such a site the way I respect the people here. People at those fawning kind of sites are a bit creepy.

        What I like most about Mike is that while he's a great author, he's an even better human being. This site reflects that. Is it an alpha-male dominance thing to take an example from someone like Mike or respect what he has done and what he does? I would say it is antithetical to he is.

        Am I being all schoolboy pollyana about a famous man, resorting to the fawning that I just denounced? Nope. I admire people who are both more and less famous than MM for living up to what they say they are. A good example is a good example.

        I think I had a relevant point somewhere in there...

        Now that that is out of the way...

        Miqque- you mentioned the disparity between King George I and his son. From a thousand points of light to mean-spirited paternalism. I never thought I would see the day when I found George H. to be a relatively positive example in international diplomacy...

        What a screwy, upside down world this has become in a few short years.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by TheAdlerian
          Meanwhile, I am happy to admire a nice talented guy like Mr. M. I don't think that that makes me a weak person or anything.
          :D

          I like to think it makes us strong people, instead.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Doc
            I like to think it makes us strong people, instead.
            Definetly! I've gotten alot of help not just from Mike but from you all!
            Thanks!

            I'd like to say that this is our 'Round Table'..

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by TheAdlerian
              Sure! Any thoughts from the would of Soc about what people like bullies and or aggressive leaders.
              It's really strange that thing about bullies. Not that it happens but what it does to you. Either watching or participating. I felt sometime that i had to turn into one just to be accepted for some weird reason..

              Bully or be bullied was what i felt, it brings silent shame to you later in life.. I had a rough class.. And even i was bullied or rather 'ostracized' for just being different and mostly dreamy.

              Good thing i had those geeky friends from other classes..

              I meet some people I had bullied or beaten a little as a kid (just one or two people I know of). And i don't really bring it up to them but i respect them for pulling through anyway. If they would talk about it i wouldn't know what to say really? I would definitely say it was wrong and i felt sorry about it. But I couldn't really explain why it happened?

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              • #22
                The most famous sociological examination of the broad topic is The Authoritarian Personality by Adorno, which is a critical examination of cultures of authoritarianism. Adorno was part of the Frankfort School, most of whom were German Jews, displaced by Naz*ism and disappointed by Marxism.

                More contemporary scholars have studied bullying in many contexts. Not surprisingly, most have found that children who are bullies remain bullies as adults. One of the most interesting articles I've read lately was on workplace bullies. These people have a false sense of entitlement backed by years of getting away with, essentially, bullying.

                There are also loads of articles that find bullies to have low self-esteem and low self-efficacy, along with inconsistent self-concepts.

                Mostly, it seems, bullies are created as children. They embrace that aspect of who they are and act on it until it really becomes, more holistically, who they are. Bullying becomes the basis for most of their social interaction.

                Sounds suspiciously like two prominent pliticians from Texas.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Doc
                  The most famous sociological examination of the broad topic is The Authoritarian Personality by Adorno, which is a critical examination of cultures of authoritarianism. Adorno was part of the Frankfort School, most of whom were German Jews, displaced by Naz*ism and disappointed by Marxism.
                  Do you recommend this book? Because it has got a rather bad reviews at Amazon?

                  http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by TheAdlerian
                    The crazy thing about a false sense of entitlement is that it may not be false if you keep getting away with it. People go along with bullies and give them the de facto right to do what they do, so what is the bully’s incentive to quit. It’s weird.
                    So what is the best to defeat a bully. Show him for the insecure person
                    he is? Or what?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by TheAdlerian
                      I guess that if you just stop cooperating with them. Of course then that might transfor you into the alpha and it all starts again!
                      Eeek!

                      Well.. Maybe you could say that these things are just a 'phase' that kids go through?

                      And I think it's how the alpha deals with his 'power' situation.
                      But will kids go for the 'nice guy' or the 'cool bad guy'?

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Theocrat
                        Originally posted by Doc
                        The most famous sociological examination of the broad topic is The Authoritarian Personality by Adorno, which is a critical examination of cultures of authoritarianism. Adorno was part of the Frankfort School, most of whom were German Jews, displaced by Naz*ism and disappointed by Marxism.
                        Do you recommend this book? Because it has got a rather bad reviews at Amazon?

                        http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books
                        I agree with the one reviewer who dismissed the other reviewers.

                        I'll start by saying I don't agree with everything in it, and I find it flawed in some ways. However, as an introduction to a set of ideas, and as a commentary and cautionary on the dangers of authoritarianism and what it creates is interesting, at least, and quite profound at best.

                        Does Adorno have an agenda, as the reviewers suggest? Of course. Every academic work does. This is not Marxism, however, nor does it have a Marxist agenda.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Doc
                          Does Adorno have an agenda, as the reviewers suggest? Of course. Every academic work does. This is not Marxism, however, nor does it have a Marxist agenda.
                          Is it a tough read? Or is it smooth and relatively easy to digest?

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Sticky wicket. What do we do about bullies? Where do they come from?

                            Not far from here is the infamous Columbine High School (lots of things named for the state flower, the columbine). This was the ultimate bad solution to bullies; namely, shoot 'em. Then there's the classical American Educational System approach; ignore the fact that bullies exist. Also bad.

                            Psychological thought has centered on bullies being kids who were themselves bullied and thus became abusers (let's call it what it is) in a Stockhom syndrome-type scenario. Others speak of neglect, others as witnesses of bullying or abuse in the home (violence as an answer). My own thoughts are that bullies have found that the extent of their abilities to influence the real world roots in using violence on the weak. This is why bullies tend to have very small social circles (mostly of those who hide behind bullies, cowards of the first order), are mean-spirited, have little insight, and are interpreted as frightened individuals overcompensating for their shortcomings.

                            The bully syndrome in politics is often played out at a covert or tacit level. Leverage for votes is more often used than guns in an alley. However, when we get a firecracker reaction (as from the hothead that started this thread) I tend to think more about lack of anger management and severe lack of communication skills.

                            I think the current answer to bullies is the video recorder. Somehow when bullies are shown actually performing their bullying, justice does waggle its slow stupid head in that direction and take action.
                            Miqque
                            ... just another sailor on the seas of Fate, dogpaddling desperately ...

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Miqque
                              I think the current answer to bullies is the video recorder. Somehow when bullies are shown actually performing their bullying, justice does waggle its slow stupid head in that direction and take action.
                              Hmm... "Lets do surveillance on each other".
                              I know what you mean, and I agree to a certain extent, but somehow those things can get out of hand. It would turn children into watchmen when they grow older. Seeing the power of surveillance.
                              Or maybe i'm just barmy..

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                When I was having lunch today it was with a Navajo buddy of mine (poor guy has degenerative disc disease, and is up to his 18th or so surgery and facing more). Anyhow, we were talking about his 8-year-old son, who is in 3rd grade. Seems his son has been in trouble a bit for fighting (as the school puts it), but what's really happening is small roving gangs of 5th-graders are teaming up to beat on him. Like me, he is very big for his age, even now bigger than yon 5th-graders. So it take four of five of them to gather the balls to attack him, and, thanks to good parental advice, he usually ends up kicking the crap out of them. Then he gets in trouble for "fighting".

                                Now, this is a fairly peaceable, mellow kid. He does not start fights, he is the victim. I know the scenario all too well, as this was my childhood replayed. Thing is, my dad told me "never hit anybody smaller than you". Well, he didn't mention that if there were half a dozen of the beggers the math works out to that they ARE bigger, cumutavely. I just wasn't quick enough with the math to work it out when I was being beat upon. By junior high, my math had caught up to the victimization, and there were rather abrupt ends to the bullyings. Oh yeah, i got suspended a couple of time, but the beatings stopped.

                                This is what I've been talking about in this thread. I sincerely wish for a non-violent end to such situations, but that's a rare outcome. Perhaps in the political arena it can be different, as when the bully's true nature is exposed perhaps their confirmation for an important position will also come to an abrupt end.
                                Miqque
                                ... just another sailor on the seas of Fate, dogpaddling desperately ...

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