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Swedish vs UK Economy?

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  • Theocrat
    replied
    Originally posted by Rymdolov
    Originally posted by Theocrat
    Originally posted by Mikey_C
    A bit harsh on 'the Boss' there;
    Now tom said mom, wherever there’s a cop beatin’ a guy
    Wherever a hungry newborn baby cries
    Where there’s a fight against the blood and hatred in the air
    Look for me mom I’ll be there
    Wherever there’s somebody fightin’ for a place to stand
    Or a decent job or a helpin’ hand
    Wherever somebody’s strugglin’ to be free
    Look in their eyes mom you’ll see me.
    Well, who knows. He's probably a tosser. My pet hate's Billy Bragg...:x
    I think he puts, maybe unwillingly, an aura of 'powerlessness' into the minds of workers. We have a guy who is just like that here in sweden. To which workers get drunk to, and rant about their angst.
    Are you talking about Ulf Lundell?
    Well... Him and Gessle "Tuffa Tider".. I just get annoyed you know?.. *Lol*

    Leave a comment:


  • Rymdolov
    replied
    Originally posted by Theocrat
    Originally posted by Mikey_C
    A bit harsh on 'the Boss' there;
    Now tom said mom, wherever there’s a cop beatin’ a guy
    Wherever a hungry newborn baby cries
    Where there’s a fight against the blood and hatred in the air
    Look for me mom I’ll be there
    Wherever there’s somebody fightin’ for a place to stand
    Or a decent job or a helpin’ hand
    Wherever somebody’s strugglin’ to be free
    Look in their eyes mom you’ll see me.
    Well, who knows. He's probably a tosser. My pet hate's Billy Bragg...:x
    I think he puts, maybe unwillingly, an aura of 'powerlessness' into the minds of workers. We have a guy who is just like that here in sweden. To which workers get drunk to, and rant about their angst.
    Are you talking about Ulf Lundell?

    Leave a comment:


  • Theocrat
    replied
    Originally posted by Mikey_C
    A bit harsh on 'the Boss' there;
    Now tom said mom, wherever there’s a cop beatin’ a guy
    Wherever a hungry newborn baby cries
    Where there’s a fight against the blood and hatred in the air
    Look for me mom I’ll be there
    Wherever there’s somebody fightin’ for a place to stand
    Or a decent job or a helpin’ hand
    Wherever somebody’s strugglin’ to be free
    Look in their eyes mom you’ll see me.
    Well, who knows. He's probably a tosser. My pet hate's Billy Bragg...:x
    I think he puts, maybe unwillingly, an aura of 'powerlessness' into the minds of workers. We have a guy who is just like that here in sweden. To which workers get drunk to, and rant about their angst.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mikey_C
    replied
    A bit harsh on 'the Boss' there;
    Now tom said mom, wherever there’s a cop beatin’ a guy
    Wherever a hungry newborn baby cries
    Where there’s a fight against the blood and hatred in the air
    Look for me mom I’ll be there
    Wherever there’s somebody fightin’ for a place to stand
    Or a decent job or a helpin’ hand
    Wherever somebody’s strugglin’ to be free
    Look in their eyes mom you’ll see me.
    Well, who knows. He's probably a tosser. My pet hate's Billy Bragg...:x

    Leave a comment:


  • Theocrat
    replied
    Originally posted by Mikey_C
    Eeeek - well, you haven't cheered me up!

    It would be foolish in the extreme to conflate 'the swedish model' with any form of communism, but I have no doubt Bush is capable of doing so. The real debate is whether different 'varieties of capitalism' are capable of coexisting. I rather suspect that most Marxists, being of an economically determinist frame of mind, would agree with the argument that 'convergence' to the 'anglo-saxon' model is taking place. The evidence is certainly there to support this, but I would say that it's a consciously pursued political process rather than an historical inevitability.

    In the end, I agree with an interview I read with a leader of the Swedish social democrats, who said he was opposed to the Constitution not on the grounds of nationalism, but of democracy.
    Democracy is a word used to 'bait' people's minds at political summits.
    Nobody seems to care about the best way to live anymore.
    This is Neo-Fascism developing naturally in people due to the destructivness of capitalist anarchy on the wellfare state.

    Originally posted by Mikey_C
    What is depressing though is the way in which opinion has been manipulated in the UK (and increasingly in countries such as Germany, Japan and Sweden) by a sustained campaign of indoctrination known as 'economics' or 'business studies'.
    Yeah.. the 'serpents tongue' is flicking it's detestable lies.
    Women are being degraded as well as disabled people
    and immigrants. There is now a campaing to promote more racial hostility in sweden by kicking out immigrants who commit crime's like wifebeating and mutilation. The 'moral majority' dogma seems to be increasing aswell.
    I told my dad (who likes history), that he should take the ascending model of fascism (Nazi) and make a comparison. He was also shocked when i told him about his pension being slashed. And more so later on...

    Originally posted by Mikey_C
    I went to a party at the weekend and met some of my partner's old flatmates from university days. One woman is an economics graduate - in the course of pleasantries I mentioned that I worked as a trade unionist;
    "Oh", she said, "the enemy".
    Then she added; "Are you an extreme one?".
    "Very extreme!" I hissed "On strike all the time..."
    What "enemy"? We are all people aren't we.. I hope this dogma will cease soon. But i guess people will only realise it until too late. :x

    Originally posted by Mikey_C
    But actually I was gobsmacked. Here was a woman working as an accountant in Ireland, who had been moaning that she could never afford a property there and that society had turned "Too materialist". In what possible shape or form could I be considered "the enemy" when I spend half of every week travelling across the county trying to stop people like her being f***ed around at work?

    I probably should have risen to the bait - but I like having the weekend off! Anyway, that's 'education' for you... :x
    Ohh... The 'Malaise' in the capitalist contradiction.
    They are pushing down the rhetoric of the working class by flying over to Sweden more 'working class' nullifiers and bullshit artists like Bruce Springsteen. These artists only serve to make the workers feel more insecure in their plight.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mikey_C
    replied
    Eeeek - well, you haven't cheered me up!

    It would be foolish in the extreme to conflate 'the swedish model' with any form of communism, but I have no doubt Bush is capable of doing so. The real debate is whether different 'varieties of capitalism' are capable of coexisting. I rather suspect that most Marxists, being of an economically determinist frame of mind, would agree with the argument that 'convergence' to the 'anglo-saxon' model is taking place. The evidence is certainly there to support this, but I would say that it's a consciously pursued political process rather than an historical inevitability.

    In the end, I agree with an interview I read with a leader of the Swedish social democrats, who said he was opposed to the Constitution not on the grounds of nationalism, but of democracy.

    What is depressing though is the way in which opinion has been manipulated in the UK (and increasingly in countries such as Germany, Japan and Sweden) by a sustained campaign of indoctrination known as 'economics' or 'business studies'.

    I went to a partty at the weekend and met some of my partner's old flatmates from university days. One woman is an economics graduate - in the course of pleasantries I mentioned that I worked as a trade unionist;
    "Oh", she said, "the enemy".
    Then she added; "Are you an extreme one?".
    "Very extreme!" I hissed "On strike all the time..."

    But actually I was gobsmacked. Here was a woman working as an accountant in Ireland, who had been moaning that she could never afford a property there and that society had turned "Too materialist". In what possible shape or form could I be considered "the enemy" when I spend half of every week travelling across the county trying to stop people like her being f***ed around at work?

    I probably should have risen to the bait - but I like having the weekend off! Anyway, that's 'education' for you... :x

    Leave a comment:


  • Theocrat
    replied
    Originally posted by Mikey_C
    As regards neoliberalism - I've had some interesting debates with one of my union colleagues who is Chilean and teaches international development at the Uni in his spare time. His idea is that neoliberalism no longer operates and we are moving to a regime of international regulation, so that socialism will 'slip in through the back door' (which was Margaret Thatcher's worst fear about the EU social chapter). I am more gloomy and sceptical - can anyone cheer me up?
    I've been reading the same thing myself. It makes perfect sense.
    The US has been trying to stave of this natural progression towards a global socialist world. But the question is? Socialistic for whom?
    Will it be 'Socialism'? Or 'National Socialism' which eats away drastically at the GDP economy in the country.. That is why i think they had to open the "Swedish Model" market and get rid of "Social Democracy". Every capitalist in sweden is sucking the workforce and the public expenditures dry, and it's all of a sudden "Every man for himself". They are trying to flee like rats from a sinking ship i think!
    "Democracy" is being used by america to open up the markets of the middle east so that they probably can Kaizen them aswell!
    But all this money will be useless in the longrun.

    I think the US will annex Canada. Either economically or military to get rid of their "Swedish Model".

    I keep seeing everywhere the signs of media induced communist hatred from america. They don't want socialism from spreading it seems.
    I was also disliking the communists in my country for some weird reason... But now i know what seems to be going on. This is a full war on the economical development into socialism. Every economist is seeing the pattern emerge in the states.

    I read the sportspages yesterday and saw the norwegian ski-team being poked at as "The Reds" because of their red ski-clothes this is ludicrous. They seem to want to appeal to the elite of this nation with these stupid remarks. Thanks to having been in a Social Democracy i can see what is happening. Seing "The Balance" shift towards total chaos.

    I give it another, one to three years, before the system collapses.
    That is why i think america is making use of violent control measures so that the system of "regulation" can happen without the country destroying itself from the ground up.

    Today i feel quite scared and helpless at whats going on.

    Perhaps this is what nostradamus saw eventually happening.
    At least in the movie. "I have seen paradise".

    And i don't believe in the paranormal or anything like that.. This is strange.. Perhaps i'm going insane or something *lol*

    Perhaps Parsifal is finding the 'Grail' at last?
    In that things in themselves don't have any real worth.
    They just are...

    Anyway.. We are at a crossroads.
    Either the human 'fool' is becoming more wiser.
    Or more destructive.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mikey_C
    replied
    Originally posted by Rymdolov
    So the "strike" to remove Chavez was actually a lock-out? Or have I misunderstood this?
    A bit of both, I would say. The CTV is a highly corrupt union federation, with rigged leadership elections, and its hand in glove with the employers' federation - hence the emergence of a new formation. Venezuelan oilworkers earn 10x the average salary, so are clearly a privileged section of the population.

    Industrial relations theorist Alan Flanders famously decribed trade unions as representing both 'vested interests' and 'a sword of justice'. In this case it was clearly the former.

    Is Chavez correct in arresting the head of the CTV? One wonders - but one also wonders how the British state would respond if the trade unions became involved in an attempt to overthrow democracy. The new powers of house arrest would be invoked as the minimum. No doubt crocodile tears will be wept over this in many quarters, but has the same publicity been given to the 94 trade unionists murdered under conditions of impunity in Colombia last year? Hmmm.

    As regards neoliberalism - I've had some interesting debates with one of my union colleagues who is Chilean and teaches international development at the Uni in his spare time. His idea is that neoliberalism no longer operates and we are moving to a regime of international regulation, so that socialism will 'slip in through the back door' (which was Margaret Thatcher's worst fear about the EU social chapter). I am more gloomy and sceptical - can anyone cheer me up?

    Leave a comment:


  • Rymdolov
    replied
    Originally posted by Theocrat
    FP vill dessutom ge falska sken av sina 'gammel-liberala' ideأ©r av broderlighet och fأ¥ hit utlأ¤ndska arbetare med samma dأ¥liga lأ¶n som dom hade i hemlأ¤nderna. Det i sin tur kommer faktiskt bara skada integrationspolitiken och invandrarhat frأ¥n svenska befolkningen
    kommer أ¶ka. Som du sأ¤kert lأ¤st om?

    Jag tror dessutom att dom inte kommer att sأ¤nka skatten i fأ¶rsta taget heller. Det blir typ arbetarklassen som sponsrar sin egen vأ¤lfأ¤rd.

    National ekonomerna i USA sأ¤ger att "Skأ¤rp er fأ¶r fan! Europa kommer att hata oss, nأ¤r vi bara exporterar vأ¥ra skrأ¤pprodukter, och vi inte kan kأ¶pa deras! Fأ¶r att vi mأ¥ste fأ¥ upp vأ¤rdet pأ¥ dollarn".
    Ekonomerna i Sverige skakar antingen tأ¤nder eller kأ¤nner sig grأ¥tfأ¤rdig. Vissa civil-ekonomer i europa sأ¤ger "Sluta sأ¤lja era barn!".
    Ruttet!... Jأ¤vligt ruttet!

    Jag hoppas faktiskt ibland att hela USA marknaden kraschar sأ¥ att vi fأ¥r se med vأ¥ra egna أ¶gon. Att 'hأ¤nsynslأ¶s' kapitalism inte lأ¶nar sig i lأ¤ngden heller. Vi fأ¥r se..
    Jo, om det ska komma hit arbetskraft sأ¥ ska det ju vara fأ¶r att det finns ett behov och fأ¶r att ge dem en chans att jobba fأ¶r sjyssta lأ¶ner - inte fأ¶r att de nuvarande svenska arbetarna ska kunna pressas till lأ¤gre lأ¶neansprأ¥k.

    Jag hأ¥ller med dig om skatterna. Det verkar som om skattesأ¤nkningarna (bأ¥de de som genomfأ¶rts av (s) och de som de borgerliga legat bakom) mest gأ¥tt ut pأ¥ att sأ¤nka skatten fأ¶r de som redan har mycket pengar. Vilket أ¤r helt vansinnigt. Det bأ¤sta fأ¶r fأ¶retagen vore vأ¤l om folk med lأ¥ga inkomster fick mer pengar att rأ¶ra sig med, eftersom de dأ¥ antingen kأ¶per sأ¥dant de inte haft rأ¥d med tidigare eller kأ¶per kvalitetsprodukter, medan redan rika snarare sparar pengar istأ¤llet. Visst, det behأ¶vs investeringar, men vid nأ¥gon punkt mأ¥ste ju de fأ¶retag som har nأ¥gon vettig tillverkning kunna gynnas istأ¤llet fأ¶r att det ska vara lأ¤tt att skaffa aktier i en massa أ¶verhypade IT-fiaskon.

    Jag lأ¤ngtar ocksأ¥ efter den dأ¤r kollapsen ibland. Men att fأ¥ sأ¤ga "vad var det jag sa" أ¤r inte mycket vأ¤rt jأ¤mfأ¶rt med allt elأ¤nde som de amerikanska arbetarna skulle fأ¥ gأ¥ igenom. Det verkar jobbigt nog att bo i USA som det أ¤r, tycker jag. :(

    Hoppas att det gأ¥r bra med kurserna. Du verkar ju vara hyfsat pأ¥lأ¤st redan. Som Mikey pأ¥pekade sأ¥ behأ¶vs det folk som inte أ¤r rأ¤dda fأ¶r datorer i facket!

    Leave a comment:


  • Rymdolov
    replied
    Originally posted by Mikey_C
    If anyone is perusing today's "Labourstart", by the way, you might need to read this to add some balance to the Venezuela story:

    http://www.venezuelasolidarity.org.u...efc793dd11c9f7

    Viva Chavez!
    So the "strike" to remove Chavez was actually a lock-out? Or have I misunderstood this?

    Leave a comment:


  • Theocrat
    replied
    Originally posted by Mikey_C
    Hehe... I asked one of our "navigators" a sneaky question.
    "If there is 'too' much introspection. Don't you think that innovation will be halted?". I got a really glazed and stupfying answer which didn't amount to anything, REALLY!. And a weird look which means i should not push the rhetoric too much i guess? They might think me a smartass. :lol:

    I've been reading somewhere, or have gotten the impression that, american developers and businessmen, are straying from the lean model just because of this. Pushing down the workforce creates low returns in the long-run. Customers will eventually stray from the company.
    And will eventually pay a little more for better quality products
    in the end.

    What a bunch of fucking idiots! This is Reaganomics which the 'Unbiased' press in Sweden has warned us about since '91.

    More social economy is needed for society to work.

    I've read some economy papers mostly from the US.
    And i've seen on TV some disturbing news.
    About the falling dollar....

    *I'll draw you a picture*

    The national economists in America are saying "Stop this! You're imposing a model on europe which is destroying our economy. They'll be shortchanged when we can't import their products".

    European economists are saying "We need more social reform!"

    Swedish Economists are saying nothing.. Their trembling because of the ruthlessness of shareholders aka the company CEO's getting astronomical wages. Leading pisspoor decisions in the process!

    Is this the death of Neo-Liberalism? As certain Chinese economists are saying? Or are they wishing too much?

    It certainly 'feels' like it though....

    Leave a comment:


  • Mikey_C
    replied
    Originally posted by Theocrat
    [ The internet is the grandest tool to use for this.
    Too right. Unions are backward in this unfortunately. We had a seminar in my course with Eric Lee (www.labourstart.org) who has some amusing anecdotes.

    The Communication Worker Union (CWU) were discussing online applications with him. The concept was too much for them.

    "Well" said Eric, "You could at least put forms up on your website as pdfs for stewards and potential members to print off and post by snail mail"

    "Oh no" said the membership officer, "we can't possibly do that".

    "Why not?" says Eric.

    "The forms are yellow!"

    The reason for this (of course) is that the forms have always been yellow. Despite Eric suggesting that the completed forms could be copied off onto yellow paper on arrival at the office, the idea was dismissed...

    If anyone is perusing today's "Labourstart", by the way, you might need to read this to add some balance to the Venezuela story:

    http://www.venezuelasolidarity.org.u...efc793dd11c9f7

    Viva Chavez!

    Leave a comment:


  • Theocrat
    replied
    Originally posted by Theocrat
    GOOD MAN!!! Well done there - let us know how you get on! :D
    I haven't started the course's needed yet. They start during the middle of May, and are about 2آ½ days long. I took one course which is aimed at understanding union work and laws. Next course i will take is about "The Union and Society".

    I heard yesterday that a friend of mine at work, who also works as a Safety Inspector (Skyddsombud). Wants me and others to spread around forms, about how the stress levels are and how they affect our work.
    In turn these pappers will be sent to our union office.

    We'll see what happens? :)

    I do NOT want these asshole's invading my workplace and friends with BS "Reaganomics" imposed by the EU standardising processes.

    People have to start thinking globally about these whole issues and not just regionally. The internet is the grandest tool to use for this. And i hope new generations will stretch out their hands to others in their fight.
    Just writing to them and giving them hope would be enough to induce hope for a just society.

    We have to start changing people minds to accept that 'we' are here and that 'we' are also the ones changing society. Neo-liberalism is really a self-destructing way to destroy a truly free society. Whatever even happened to ordinary "brotherhood ideas" innate within ordinary Liberalism?

    Leave a comment:


  • Theocrat
    replied
    Originally posted by Rymdolov
    Vad har GP gjort med Folkpartiet, fأ¶rresten? Det har jag nog missat.
    Det finns nأ¥gra scenarion som economerna har fأ¶rutspأ¥tt tidigare.

    Uhmmm...
    Jodu! USA har sأ¤nkt dollarn och pأ¥frestar den europeiska
    marknaden att "effektivisera" produktionen.
    Det أ¤r i stort sett dأ¤rfأ¶r mأ¥nga fأ¶retag kأ¶r med 'mager produktion'.
    Aktieأ¤garna أ¶ser pengar pأ¥ nya direktأ¶rer och chefer som ska
    genomfأ¶ra sأ¥na projekt pأ¥ fأ¶retag, i ett fأ¶rsأ¶k att "stأ¤rka det kapitalisktiska fأ¶rtroendet" i europa.

    G.P. (SD) Hأ¶jer skatten fأ¶r arbetarna sأ¥ att arbetarna ska bأ¶rja
    rأ¶sta pأ¥ FP. Och dom i sin tur kan genomfأ¶ra en 'nyliberal' politik i Sverige. FP vill dessutom ge falska sken av sina 'gammel-liberala' ideأ©r av broderlighet och fأ¥ hit utlأ¤ndska arbetare med samma dأ¥liga lأ¶n som dom hade i hemlأ¤nderna. Det i sin tur kommer faktiskt bara skada integrationspolitiken och invandrarhat frأ¥n svenska befolkningen
    kommer أ¶ka. Som du sأ¤kert lأ¤st om?

    Jag tror dessutom att dom inte kommer att sأ¤nka skatten i fأ¶rsta taget heller. Det blir typ arbetarklassen som sponsrar sin egen vأ¤lfأ¤rd.

    National ekonomerna i USA sأ¤ger att "Skأ¤rp er fأ¶r fan! Europa kommer att hata oss, nأ¤r vi bara exporterar vأ¥ra skrأ¤pprodukter, och vi inte kan kأ¶pa deras! Fأ¶r att vi mأ¥ste fأ¥ upp vأ¤rdet pأ¥ dollarn".
    Ekonomerna i Sverige skakar antingen tأ¤nder eller kأ¤nner sig grأ¥tfأ¤rdig. Vissa civil-ekonomer i europa sأ¤ger "Sluta sأ¤lja era barn!".
    Ruttet!... Jأ¤vligt ruttet!

    Jag hoppas faktiskt ibland att hela USA marknaden kraschar sأ¥ att vi fأ¥r se med vأ¥ra egna أ¶gon. Att 'hأ¤nsynslأ¶s' kapitalism inte lأ¶nar sig i lأ¤ngden heller. Vi fأ¥r se..

    Leave a comment:


  • Rymdolov
    replied
    Originally posted by Theocrat
    I'm signing up to become a "union official" tomorrow, at the request of the many friends i work with. To stave off the 'Neo-liberal' wave thats garnering opinion in my town. All of this is due to the 'new boss' and his shitty tactics.

    I will 'never' give up! *Jag ger fan inte upp alltsأ¥!* ;). I don't care if they even poke the issue of unemployment in my face.

    I've read that our company has moved back a division from mexico.
    Stating that "What 60 workers did in mexico. 10-12 Workers can do here".
    They state "competens" et al as reasons for doing this. But i think it's mostly related to the climate of more 'union based activity'. Gregg Shotwell in the US seems to be working closely with the unions in that region to increase awareness about whats going on. But i don't think it's just because of this that they moved back but i think it plays, at least, a small part.

    (Cant say the company name i guess?... that might be percieved as corporate espionage).

    Jag brukade faktiskt rأ¶sta pأ¥ moderaterna under C. Bildt. Fast senaste gأ¥ngen rأ¶stade jag blankt. Jag vet inte om man ska rأ¶sta pأ¥ Ohly pga hans inkompetens i media och i viss agenda. Jag أ¤r hyffsat trأ¶tt pأ¥ att mأ¥nga i vأ¤nstern drأ¶mmer i smyg om sovjet-kommunism samt allt ramsande och lallande som brukar fأ¶rete sig i kretsarna.
    Ursأ¤kta mina utspel... *Lol*

    P.S. Hأ¤rligt smart av G.P. att fأ¶rsأ¶ka svأ¤nga rأ¶sterna أ¥t Folkpartiet iaf.
    Jأ¤vla sopa!

    Hur أ¤r det pأ¥ ditt jobb. Tyckte att du sa nأ¥tt om att du jobbade inom publicering?
    Asbra! Sأ¥dana som du behأ¶vs, som vأ¥gar sأ¤ga ifrأ¥n!

    Nej, det var den andra svensken i "Swedish translations"-trأ¥den som jobbade pأ¥ nأ¥got fأ¶rlag, tror jag. Sjأ¤lv pluggar jag just nu - fأ¶r att bli bibliotekarie (bra sأ¤tt att fأ¶ra fram MMs bأ¶cker ). Sأ¥ det أ¤r lأ¤tt fأ¶r mig att prata om att inte ge upp, antar jag, medan jag sitter hأ¤r med mina studiemedel och mأ¥r bra. :? Innan studierna jobbade jag bl a som stأ¤dare inom offentlig sektor. Det var rأ¤tt okej, fأ¶rutom en del smأ¥saker och naturligtvis att det aldrig finns pengar inom det offentliga.

    Jag أ¤r inte heller sأ¥ nأ¶jd med Ohly och de andra gammelkommunisterna. Det finns nog inget parti i riksdagen som jag kأ¤nner mig helt bekvأ¤m med. Jag har rأ¶stat pأ¥ mp eller v bara fأ¶r att de kan bromsa sossarnas vأ¤rsta flأ¶rtande med hأ¶gerpartierna. Inbillar jag mig, iaf.

    About companies moving production between countries: This is why union co-operation across borders is so important. "Globalisation" so far has mostly been about different governments trying to get large companies to invest in their country by offering crappy legal protection for employees. This has to be countered by unions. LO (Swedish federation of unions) has started to work more internationally, lately. I guess this is what is needed - the relatively strong unions in the rich countries showing solidarity with their less fortunate comrades (if that term is ok). I hope they can still keep contact with the people "on the factory floor", though. And all this is easier said than done, I guess.

    Vad har GP gjort med Folkpartiet, fأ¶rresten? Det har jag nog missat.

    Leave a comment:

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