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Harry The Nazi

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    [quote="Danisty
    I'm 26 and I have to say that what you describe here about others my age is exactly what pisses me off about my generation. Everyone seems to have such a nonchalant attitude towards these things. Unfortunately, I also run into a lot of racists on the forums I frequent. There certainly seems to be a good number of Left Hand Path occultists that are also neo-nazis. I really don't even know how to express my anger about these things. My husband is part Jewish, so I get really bothered by it, but it seems that nothing I have to say makes any difference. I'd even wager to say that most people my age don't really see what was so wrong with Nazi Germany in the first place. I've talked with many people who feel that Germany did the right thing. I really don't understand those who believe that the Holocaust never even happened. They say that it's all Jewish propaganda....mathematically, I don't see how that's even feasible. If the Jews were not killed, where the hell did they go???

    I notice even a big difference though between people my age and people just 3 or 4 years younger than me. Most of them don't remember the Berlin Wall coming down. For me, that was a huge historical event that I remember clearly. Of course, it also doesn't hurt that I have a really good memory.[/quote]

    If only 50% of people questioned had heard of Auschwitz, I wonder how many would have heard of Birkenau?? I dread to think.

    Most of the people in our dept at work are 20-25 years of age, and come from wealthy upper middle class families. The way that the UK educational system works these days, about the only history any of these people have learnt is about the Nazis and Hitler. They have learnt all the facts and figures, they have gained their A grades, but are still distanced from the topic and fail to understand it's significance, or even to care, for the most part.

    I had to listen to one of the girls going on about how she wished people would get off Hitler's back, as he did a lot of good for the German people who were starving during the Weimer Republic. She tried to pass off his beliefs on his upbringing and when she claimed he never knew, and there was no evidence for him knowing, about the gasing of Jews (though she didn't refute it went on) I just could not help but laugh at the plain stupidity of the comments. Really, I just despair.

    I would say that Harry has probably come out of the same mould as these people.

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  • devilchicken
    replied
    I suspect that Harry probably didn't know about the Auschwitz memorial - which is quite terrible in itself. Just goes to show that someone can grow up, having had every possible advantage, have the best education money can buy (all paid for hard earned public money), and yet the guy can still be a stupid, thoughtless little twonk.

    Personally I don't think he got enough hard discipline as a child. Hopefully a taste of British Army life will kick his arse into gear. However I suspect, he'll get easy street all the way...

    William isn't actually that much better - the other week he attended one of the last 'legal' foxhunts. Just goes to show how much of a divide there is between these people and the general public..

    I just don't understand why we continue to pay for them and fund their extravagant lifestyles. If they want to represent the United Kingdom in an official capacity they should be employed by the state in that role. If not - then they should bloody well get out there and get a life and a career, instead of expecting the state to pick up the bill. In some ways they're just as bad as some of the people down at the dole office - abusing the benefits system.

    There was a TV programme a little while ago about Prince Charles and his tattered public image. Revealed some quite interesting things about the heir to the throne. For instance, Charles and one of his manservants had a interesting sideline going - selling off official gifts given to the Royal Family and then keeping the money for their own purposes.

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  • xidrep
    replied
    But...I can't see the same reaction to someone wearing the outfit of a commissar of the NKVD. And, to be honest, they were just as 'bad'. In fact, Stalin was probably more of a sadistic genocidal totalitarian than Hitler. It's a nice question of perception, and the better one's understanding of the history (and the facts of history, as far as they can ever be ascertained, rather than propaganda and revisionism) the clearer the perception. Hitler is still the 'bogeyman' of our time - Alexander, Chinggis, Napoleon, Kaiser Bill before him; Stalin, Pol Pot, Saddam after*. With the passage of time and 'living' experience, the 'impact' of even the most atrocious crimes will be lessened in our psyche. BUT therein lies the overwhelming reason for remembrance - not just of the costs, but of the causes - active and passive. Holocaust deniers are a danger, but not as great a threat to avoidance of repetition as those that live in an uninfomed, ignorant bubble of non-self-education. This applies to all ages, not just the younger generations. It's an issue of the necessity of acquiring a personal perspective.

    *That's a purely British perspective. The 'bogeys' will vary dependent on the timeline and the locus. British Redcoats and the Indian garrison for some; possibly US Marines and Thunderbolt pilots for others. Personal persective. Let's not forget that we live on the last page of the Bumper Book of World History.

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  • Mikey_C
    replied
    I understand that the Holocaust features pretty high in the history curriculum nowadays, more so than when I was at school. The thing is - to my mind it's not even history as long as there are still people alive who remember it. There was a woman on the radio yesterday who was a member of the Auschwitz orchestra. What could Prince Harry say to her?

    I think for his punishment he should have to go there on a visit and then explain himself to some of the survivors. It's also about time the Royal Family publicly dealt with the fact that Edward VIII was a Nazi collaborator. After his abdication he and his nazi missus had to be posted to a far corner of the Empire and watched by MI5 to keep them out of trouble. So this would be an opportunity to address that little matter as well.

    What a sensational TV programme that would be!

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Shockingly bad taste

    Frankly this was a terrible faux-paus on Harry's part for so many reasons already outlined previously.

    But just to outline something before I offer my own opinion, I'll point out that I am a liberal and (former) Democrat (I won't even go into the former bit right now), and I found this disgusting not just because Nazi history is so relatively recent, but because of what the uniform represents.

    There are funny ways to us something like Nazis (can anyone say "The Producers") or to somehow alter the uniform in such a way to let people know that you're making fun of Nazis, but I didn't see that with Harry. One cannot compare Attila, Genghis, or Alexander to Hitler (or Stalin, I'll just chuck his name in there too), because the situations were so outrightly different. None of the first three were concerned with the erasure of any specific group. They were conquerers and empire builders; brutal and savage, but conventional warriors.

    Hitler (and Stalin) on the other hand were beyond sharing the megalomaniacal traits of the previously mentioned warriors, and they coupled that disturbing trait with severe mental problems and a defined immorality that made them more than savage and barbaric, but outight evil, and not just by the terms of our culture. Genghis, Attila, and Alexander all put down their enemies in often brutal order, but Hitler brought a sick and focused order and logic to his mass murder that sets him apart from the ancient barbarians of old. The same applies to Stalin.

    It is simply not appropriate to masquerade around in such an obvious symbol of evil, especially at this time. Knowing the gloriously short attention span and memory of the average American, I expect in forty or so years when all the WWII survivors have passed on that few will care, and that is unfortunate. As a student of history I believe it is important to remember these lessons, and there is less excuse for us to forget Hitler and his Nazis than it is to not know the whole story of the ancient barbarians. We have a fully recorded, multi-faceted history of WWII at our disposal, whereas much of the ancient history is gone or suspect. We do not have an excuse to ignore this, and we shouldn't.

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  • Danisty
    replied
    I bought an air rifle magazine a few months ago for reference photos, and there were a number of adverts for uniforms and artefacts, some of which were from the Nazi forces. That made me feel very uneasy.
    To be fair, there are people who are very interested in the history. I myself am interested in history and I don't exclude Nazis from that interest. It doesn't mean I agree with them. I don't seen anything wrong with people collecting Nazi memorabilia provided it's a purely academic hobby.

    I was listening to the BBC this morning and it was reported that about 50% of the people polled did not know what Auschwitz was.
    That's really pathetic and I agree that the U.S. probably wouldn't do any better. Frankly, I don't understand how you can get through school without knowing this stuff. It was practically drilled into us when I was in school and that wasn't all that long ago. Do we just no longer even speak of WWII? I'm thinking it must be partially the fault of people not caring enough to remember what they've been taught.

    Leave a comment:


  • DeeCrowSeer
    replied
    Well, in my humble opinion, there is everything wrong with it. If someone invited me to a fancy dress party where people would be dressed as Nazis, I'd tell them exactly where to go (the library perhaps?). It isn't a "costume", it's a symbol of hate and death and the very thought of it... GAH!!! :x Perhaps this is hypocrictical of me, but I have no problem with satire, like The Producers for instance, but I don't think anyone is claiming that Prince Harry was being satirical... or even sentient.

    I'll admit that when my friend first told me what Harry had been up to, I laughed, because it's the most ridculously stupid thing that anyone in the public eye could do. In fact, even in a white town like mine, I don't fancy your chances of making it home without a kicking if you're wearing a swastika. I still can't quite believe it. The one argument that my parents bring up in defence of the Royals is that they're "ambassadors" for our country... in which case, it would be nice in the Tourist Board did take charge of them. Perhaps they could be fitted with a "G Chip", which gives them an electric shock every time they commit a gaffe? I think in Harry's case, his stupidity might have overloaded the chip though.

    I bought an air rifle magazine a few months ago for reference photos, and there were a number of adverts for uniforms and artefacts, some of which were from the Nazi forces. That made me feel very uneasy.

    I don't know how to handle the emotional and cultural legacy of the Nazi-era, but I doubt that costume parties are part of the solution.

    Gah!!! :x

    Leave a comment:


  • Danisty
    replied
    Though I would agree that you can't really compare Alexander to the Nazis, you can't really paint a too rosy picture of him either. He was a product of his time, as well as a capricious megolomanic genius with a barely controllable temper. His reaction to Thebes thwarting him during the 335 B.C. rebellion was to have the city demolished (apart from temples and the house of the poet Pindar), put 30,000 of the population into slavery and put 6,000 people to the sword. It was not an isolated incident.
    I'm well aware of these accounts. He was by no means perfect. I brought up my specific points to clarify that he was not genocidal.

    I don't know about the rest of you, but I am in my 40s and find my views about the Nazis at variance with a lot of younger people that I work with. That is borne out with their indignation at the Sun articles, and shouting and bawling "so what?????" as if they cannot comprehend people's dismay at the incident....nor were they interested in arguments as to the reverse.
    I'm 26 and I have to say that what you describe here about others my age is exactly what pisses me off about my generation. Everyone seems to have such a nonchalant attitude towards these things. Unfortunately, I also run into a lot of racists on the forums I frequent. There certainly seems to be a good number of Left Hand Path occultists that are also neo-nazis. I really don't even know how to express my anger about these things. My husband is part Jewish, so I get really bothered by it, but it seems that nothing I have to say makes any difference. I'd even wager to say that most people my age don't really see what was so wrong with Nazi Germany in the first place. I've talked with many people who feel that Germany did the right thing. I really don't understand those who believe that the Holocaust never even happened. They say that it's all Jewish propaganda....mathematically, I don't see how that's even feasible. If the Jews were not killed, where the hell did they go???

    I notice even a big difference though between people my age and people just 3 or 4 years younger than me. Most of them don't remember the Berlin Wall coming down. For me, that was a huge historical event that I remember clearly. Of course, it also doesn't hurt that I have a really good memory.

    Leave a comment:


  • Blackbeard
    replied
    Though I would agree that you can't really compare Alexander to the Nazis, you can't really paint a too rosy picture of him either. He was a product of his time, as well as a capricious megolomanic genius with a barely controllable temper. His reaction to Thebes thwarting him during the 335 B.C. rebellion was to have the city demolished (apart from temples and the house of the poet Pindar), put 30,000 of the population into slavery and put 6,000 people to the sword. It was not an isolated incident.

    But, that is off the topic. I do think with this whole Harry business there is a generation gap difference in view. I don't know about the rest of you, but I am in my 40s and find my views about the Nazis at variance with a lot of younger people that I work with. That is borne out with their indignation at the Sun articles, and shouting and bawling "so what?????" as if they cannot comprehend people's dismay at the incident....nor were they interested in arguments as to the reverse.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Absolutely. Let's get started on the campaign.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mikey_C
    replied
    Funny how no-one's suggested privatising them yet. I'm sure there's plenty of scope for downsizing. And if PH likes armbands so much, surely that space could be sold off for a corporate logo. This is pure public sector inefficiency we're looking at! Tony?

    Leave a comment:


  • xidrep
    replied
    Have you noticed how you never saw The Duke of Edinburgh and Rudolf Hess together? I ain't saying nothin'....

    I always thought the change of surname was interesting...And if you rearrange the names of the Queen's corgis, you get 'Achtung! Stuka Dive Bomber!'. Really.

    Leave a comment:


  • Michael Moorcock
    replied
    Given that the royal family have to share a brain cell, I don't expect too much of them, though I would think his sentimental dad would have given him slightly better advice. This does suggest that the circles Harry moves in are not especially worried about right-wing politics, racialism or the Nazi Holocaust. My dad went to a fancy dress party before the war as a Ku Klux Klan member, but that was largely because you could make the costume cheaply out of a sheet. He had no clear idea what the KKK stood for. As he became more politically conscious, he came to regret that action (and in fact moved gradually, relentlessly leftward as he got older). I think Harry's action was stupid, irresponsible, outrageous. But I, too, am a republican by nature (though I've come to understand and appreciate the function of constitutional monarchy since living in the US!)
    and would like to see the lot of them downgraded, their money returned to the state and have the head of state paid for doing the job. The rest of them should have all privileges taken away and if, as Harry intends to do, they join the military should join at the lowest rank. He is, let's remember, following in the footsteps of his great-uncle, the Duke of Windsor, whom Hitler intended to place on the throne as a puppet when Germany defeated Britain. Prince Philip's often-reported racialism is also a bit of a clue to how the Windsors see the world. No Brown Windsor Soup at the Palace, eh ? Maybe the UK could fund the NHS by selling the lot of them to the US, which seems more fascinated by them than the average Daily Mail reader. You could probably get a good few billion for them.

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  • Mikey_C
    replied
    Originally posted by devilchicken
    There was also a rumour that the late Queen Mother was very racist, which is why you rarely heard her speak in public...
    Wasn't it also because she was pissed on gin all the time?

    Leave a comment:


  • Danisty
    replied
    There is nothing wrong with dressing as a Nazi for a costume party. There is something wrong with dressing as a Nazi for a costume party on the anniversary of such a horrific series of events in everyone's history. It was completely insensitive to those who suffered directly and to their families. It also isn't particularly becoming of a person with that sort of influence. I don't think he's stupid though. I think he probably anticipated getting all this attention over it.

    As far as comparing Nazis to Alexander the Great, there is quite a big difference actually. Not only did Alexander's conquests take place over 2000 years ago, it also wasn't genocide. Alexander never had the desire to wipe out an entire race of people. He actually wanted peace between Greece, Macedonia, and Persia by making it one great empire. He even adopted many Persian traditions. He left many Persian leaders in charge of their territories and even adopted King Darius's family as his own. I know next to nothing about Genghis Khan and Attila the Hun, but your analogy with Alexander the Great falls a bit short.

    Leave a comment:

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