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Harry The Nazi

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Disturbing

    There have been many evil men in this world, and many normally civilized nations have committed acts of unmitigated evil in the world, and one must be careful how they use something so dangerously symbolic when the memories are still fresh. It is true, someone dressing of as NKVD would not get the same reaction as someone dressing as Waffen SS, and that's a fault of education I believe. One can make safe fun of people like the Nazis, but it must be done with some discretion, even at a Bad Taste Party.

    And Hans, saying that if it's okay to kill Nazis then it's okay to kill Jews sounds terribly ignorant. The Nazis were killed in declared war, and as grusome and nasty as war is killing is expected there. But imprisoning, enslaving, and then murdering an entire race is NOT the same thing, and one can point at Israel and complain all day, but do not feel for a second that the blame is all theirs. The way Arabs are educated in most schools in the Middle East only promotes violence towards Jews and their "Zionist puppets".

    And the views of S. America are often suspect, especially in Argentina, since it became such a haven for Nazi war criminals. I'm rarely surprised by Nazi apologism coming from a South America, I've heard it enough in my time. But many others worldwide from numerous nations have been guilty of this.

    And if we want to be completely accurate in identifying evil, we must realize that evil has come to many nations through time; Britain, France, Germany, Spain, Russia, Belgium, Holland, Italy, Turkey, Japan, and the U.S... each has had a terrible history at one time or another, and though the Nazis were indeed evil, they too shall pass. It's just not time yet I think.

    A nation is never inherently evil, but a nation can be absorbed by evil for a time. And it takes time for the scars to heal.

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  • Pietro_Mercurios
    replied
    Originally posted by Kalessin
    Originally posted by devilchicken
    William isn't actually that much better - the other week he attended one of the last 'legal' foxhunts. Just goes to show how much of a divide there is between these people and the general public.
    Actually, you're completely incorrect on this one. The pro/anti-foxhunting divide has nothing to do with class. Actually, it's a town/country dispute, with the urban population, who control most of parliament (most urban seats have half the voters of rural seats), attempting to impose their own short-sighted values on the countryfolk, and in doing so are threatening the livelyhoods of all those involved in the hunting industry, not to mention the lives of the dogs - although I believe that most of the major hunts are going to ignore the new laws, fortunately. As such, to attend a foxhunt is to show sympathy with almost half the population of England.

    ...
    :lol: :ROFL:

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  • Kalessin
    replied
    Originally posted by devilchicken
    William isn't actually that much better - the other week he attended one of the last 'legal' foxhunts. Just goes to show how much of a divide there is between these people and the general public.
    Actually, you're completely incorrect on this one. The pro/anti-foxhunting divide has nothing to do with class. Actually, it's a town/country dispute, with the urban population, who control most of parliament (most urban seats have half the voters of rural seats), attempting to impose their own short-sighted values on the countryfolk, and in doing so are threatening the livelyhoods of all those involved in the hunting industry, not to mention the lives of the dogs - although I believe that most of the major hunts are going to ignore the new laws, fortunately. As such, to attend a foxhunt is to show sympathy with almost half the population of England.

    To return to the topic at hand, possibly the most worrying thing I've seen all year was when Sacha Baron Cohen, on his 'Borat' show, manouvered almost an entire bar in the American midwest to sing along with a song the main refrain of which was "throw the Jew down a well, and set my country free". Worse yet, none of the listeners seemed to show any concern whatsoever over this.

    Hmmm... doesn't Lord Bath at Longleat possess a more-or-less complete collection of Hitler's paintings?

    As for anti-semitism, the obvious reason seems to be that the Jews, as well as being close-knit and culturally different (in much the same way as Muslims are in Britain today), also had, in Medieval and Early Modern times, a virtual monopoly on banking and money-lending. As such, they were a culturally-distinct, almost-defenceless community of extremely rich people. Who do the proles most hate? Rich bastards and foreigners, that's who! Also, since the Jews were money-lenders, we also get a large pool of resentful debtors. From a base like that, things can only get worse.

    Interestingly, while the Spaniards and the like were persecuting the Jews on religious grounds, Edward I of England kicked 'em out purely because he owed them too much money to repay.

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  • L'Etranger
    replied
    I have frequently noted a disgusting naivete in Latin America re. H.itler. He and the Nazis are often viewed as those who challenged the Anglo-US domination - which is a lot more "real" in that hemisphere. "El enemigo principal" - the main villain - is the Yanqui. During WW2 many states were more or less forced into declaring war against Nazi Germany, and at least one country didn't do so, maybe Chile.
    As the Jews are concerned even today they are eyed with great suspicion and often hated. The clergy that went to South America with the conquerors and settlers in the 16th, 17th and later centuries brought with them an extremely narrow-minded, unenlightened "Weltbild" in which "The Jew" was the arch-villain. Humanistic developments that took place in the Old World had no or little impact. Even the independence struggles in most countries led only to new dictatorial-like states with "Caudillos" at the top and clergy around them of the most vile kind, but not to more liberal societies.
    If you live in a world where problematic people were traditionally wiped out (ask, for example, the remaining Mapuche tribe in Argentina about the 19th century campaigns to exterminate them, or workers in Colombia, or jungle-dwelling Indian natives simply in the "way of development") it probably seems rather normal that the Nazis tried the same with the Jews ...who, after all, killed the Saviour ... and probably imported the plague and, and, and ...

    A friend from Buenos Aires, a cameraman, told me one day he'd rather live and work in Germany than in Argentina with the surname he held: Israel ...!

    ------
    But one thing, Hans - is there really a possibility to consider yourself being ARYAN in your circles? Not simply "white" or "of european stock"? If so then I daresay that the ultra-right propaganda is working very successfully and has settled worrisomely deep people's cerebral layers.

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  • Pietro_Mercurios
    replied
    Re: About what

    Originally posted by Hans von Hammer
    ... What i try to prove is that even though british are not hateful creatures that deserve to be abolished (i really like you guys!), there are many that believe you should be banished from the world for what you have done to them - and see nothing wrong with nazis.
    Get it?
    We should think ourselves lucky that this isn't some PKD 'Man In The High Castle' alternative Axis Powers reality. The difference between the World as it is now and as it might have been, if the Axis Powers had won, is that such groups, as mentioned above, would not be around to whine about the iniquities of the past. They and their fellows would simply have been expunged from history.

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  • Hans von Hammer
    replied
    About what

    Well, i think that i see things differently, maybe because im not from europe, my family did not take part in war and i study it all from a distance, and it does not affect me personally. I beg that you guys dont get mad at me and start trying to put me on fire, but i think some might get pissed off-

    first of all, i have to confess that i am indeed a little bit racist (but not in the common use of the word - i believe that there exists differences between 'races', and that they should be well used - but i know what that would imply, more trouble than help, and for now, it would be disastrous. And also, i dont think one is better than the other, i just believe that they are different. Furthermore, being Brasilian, there is NO WAY i think -as a lot of ignorant ones down here do) that i am ARYAN, or PURE.)

    Well, that being stated, it is clear that my view of hitler's quest is different from many others, that think that there are no racial differences. I dont say he is in the right, but that it is not insane to believe that you are better. ANd for me, he is EXACTLY like Ghengis or Attila. They all wanted the WORLD, power, and their people ruling the world. Ghengis Khan means "UNIVERSAL RULER", and he was indeed a most EVIL individual, worst than hitler, thats for sure - he used to say that he was a divine envoy, destined to rule all that lived. And that "Happiness lies in conquering ones enemy, in driving him in front of one self, in savouring their despair, in taking their property and outraging his wives and daughters". How 'eviler' can you get? and if you go to russia, or asia all around, they will say He was the horror from the plains, the devil himself, far worst than any other - because some places still have his mark- he destroyed and burned many cities.
    Even though he did all that and is a monster, there is no problem in dressing up like him, or composing a song praising the guy (British IRON MAIDEN - their debut album, i think.) ANd so, some might see Hitler and the nazi as some may see ghengis - not see his marks, dont feel him, just see him - and i think SS coats are pretty neat, their military organization was pretty cool and their arrogant semblant falls perfectly into the battlefield. It does not justify killing jews, but then again, if killing nazis is ok, maybe killing jews is too, because of what they do in Israel. I guess it is just what kind of info we get. The media is always trying to make us THINK like they want to, and most people do. Maybe if i went to all those museums and stuff, i would hate nazis and be shocked, but i dont. What we do know here, is -for example- when brazil got its independance FROM PORTUGAL, we had to pay an extreme sum of money to ENGLAND. And from the very first free days of my country, we were already poor because we had to pay for those greedy british fellows (hehehe)
    Argentinians also feel very pissed off about england and many are those who like nazis because they killed englishmen, just as englishmen killed argentinians. Paraguai is also very agravated because they really think they would be a force in the world had not England sponsored Brazil to kill 70 percent of their male population. What i try to prove is that even though british are not hateful creatures that deserve to be abolished (i really like you guys!), there are many that believe you should be banished from the world for what you have done to them - and see nothing wrong with nazis.
    Get it?

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  • Mikey_C
    replied
    I gather that Rommel had a lot of respect among the Allies, not that that's an excuse. I suppose PH does come from a dysfunctional family, though.

    Oedipus. He was one weird motherfucker... :lol:

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  • Pietro_Mercurios
    replied
    Could there be some significance in the fact that Prince Harry apparently chose to go to a 'Colonials and Natives' themed party, weird enough in itself, as The Desert Fox, Field Marshall Erwin Rommel, of the Afrika Korp, according to Belgian and German tv news, amongst other sources?
    Spartacus Schoolnet UK: Erwin Rommel
    ...

    In the early months 1944 Rommel was approached by Ludwig Beck and Carl Goerdeler about joining the July Plot. Rommel refused, criticising the tactic of assassination claiming that it would turn Adolf Hitler into a martyr. Instead he suggested that he should be arrested and brought to trial.

    Rommel was now sent to head the German Army in France that was preparing for the Allied invasion. Unable to halt the Allied troops during Operation Overlord, on 15th July, 1944, Rommel warned Hitler that Germany was on the verge of defeat and encouraged him to bring the war to an end.

    In the summer of 1944 Rommel was approached about joining the July Plot. He refused, criticising the tactic of assassination claiming that it would turn Adolf Hitler into a martyr. Instead he suggested that he should be arrested and brought to trial.

    In the autumn of 1944 Hitler discovered that Rommel was plotting against him. On 14th October, 1944, Rommel was visited by two generals who had been sent by Hitler with an ultimatum: suicide with a state funeral and protection for his family and staff, or trial for high treason. Erwin Rommel took poison and officially it was stated that he had died of a brain seizure.
    There is something disturbing about the choice of a Nazi Afrika Korp disguise, considering the amount of time he has spent out in various parts of Africa, doing highly publicised good works for charitee. Was it really some weird Oedipal-Hamletian act of youthful rebellion? What can it all mean?

    Perhaps he really is his mother's son?

    Leave a comment:


  • Michael Moorcock
    replied
    Huxley's The Perennial Philosophy is the book I usually recommend, since Huxley goes for the positive point of the myths, arguing that there are certain spiritual truths which keep coming up in the mouths and deeds of perennial myth figures. He doesn't argue against Christianity, just sees it in its historical context. Meant a lot to me, that book, when I was a lad.
    I think there's truth in what you suggest, Ad -- maybe that's why Arab Moslems are even more anti-Jewish than European Christians.
    Anti-semitism, as Martin Gilbert points out in Letters to Auntie Fori, didn't exist in China or India, at least not until the Catholic missionaries arrived. In fact in China Jews are still highly regarded as the Westerners almost as smart and worthy as the Chinese... There ARE colonies of Jewish believers in China and India, incidentally.

    Leave a comment:


  • silverhand
    replied
    Originally posted by Mikey_C
    Originally posted by devilchicken
    In some ways they're just as bad as some of the people down at the dole office - abusing the benefits system.
    You'd have a hard job getting away with this these days. 'Trainspotting' gave away some of the techniques you'd have to perfect.

    I did it for 6 years when it was easy, in the '80s. I figured that if Thatcher was determined to inflict mass unemployment on the nation as a means of curing its economic ills, then it might as well be people who enjoyed it. I thought that the workers should be buying me free drinks for letting someone else who really needed it have my job. Of course, that was no good - you had to unemployed and miserable as well. Apart from the miners, nothing was more subversive than the happy unemployed. Which is why exactly the same techniques of police brutality was needed to smash up the 'peace convoy' at the beanfield on the way to Stonehenge festival as was used on our brothers at Orgreave. I, for one, won't forget this.

    I see the point you're making, by the way, but perhaps it needs qualifying just a bit.
    Go to WWW.sinnfeinbookshop. com they do a great "I still hate Thatcher" T-shirt. Apart from the words there's nothing overtly republican about it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mikey_C
    replied
    Originally posted by devilchicken
    In some ways they're just as bad as some of the people down at the dole office - abusing the benefits system.
    You'd have a hard job getting away with this these days. 'Trainspotting' gave away some of the techniques you'd have to perfect.

    I did it for 6 years when it was easy, in the '80s. I figured that if Thatcher was determined to inflict mass unemployment on the nation as a means of curing its economic ills, then it might as well be people who enjoyed it. I thought that the workers should be buying me free drinks for letting someone else who really needed it have my job. Of course, that was no good - you had to unemployed and miserable as well. Apart from the miners, nothing was more subversive than the happy unemployed. Which is why exactly the same techniques of police brutality was needed to smash up the 'peace convoy' at the beanfield on the way to Stonehenge festival as was used on our brothers at Orgreave. I, for one, won't forget this.

    I see the point you're making, by the way, but perhaps it needs qualifying just a bit.

    Leave a comment:


  • Pietro_Mercurios
    replied
    How serious?

    Best to mention, perhaps, that public portrayals of swastikas, Hitler and other Nazi paraphenalia are all still banned in Germany, with a possible 3 year jail sentence if convicted.

    As they've just mentioned, again, on BBC2's Newsnight.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by TheAdlerian
    Right about that painting. He was very good with architecture from what I have seen. I also understand that he was not very good at painting humans. I think that he liked realism and that that was not in vogue at the time that he wanted to go to school. Too bad that he didn’t get in. However, maybe he was nice as compared to who could have gotten in. One never knows.

    Frankly, I don’t think that the west has ever really dealt with what causes anti-Semitism. I don’t claim to know what does cause it, but I think that the major factor has to do with the inevitable competition between monotheistic religions and Judaism's place as the grandfather of the two offspring. It has to be put down in order for them to be real. So, I think that it will keep coming up until someone (or many someones) finally start talking again about the truth behind religion.
    I was one of those blinded for a long time. I actually until recently beleived that Christ was proven to be a historical person. That is obviously not the case as various historians and researchers have proven. That lead me to explore Moses and other biblical characters, and lo and behold, they all have their roots in earlier myths. I don't know why this stuff isn't taught in school. Oh yeah, I do know why...

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  • Blackbeard
    replied
    But the people you refer to don't want to know ANYTHING -- they automatically turn off the news, at least until the sports news comes on, they have a positive loathing for history, they are made uncomfortable by anything which questions the self-serving myths by which they live.

    You're definitely right there. The girl in question never watches the news because if there is anything "sad or depressing" in it she bursts into tears.

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  • Michael Moorcock
    replied
    Actually, he wasn't a bad painter, in the commercial idiom of the day. In researching Munich I made use of some of his paintings. I was thinking the other day that if the buggers had let him into art school in Vienna history might have taken a very different turn. There would probably be some sort of semi-fascist government in Italy, for instance. Oops! I forgot. There is.
    I suspect most people of most generations had much the same attitudes as the ones you describe Guest. I remember reading in Nell Dunn's Up The Junction, set in South London of the late 50s, early 60s her quoting someone as saying that Eichmann should be made a Lord, not executed.
    Antisemitism is making a come back, I'm sorry to say. Much of it stems from Israel's treatment of the Palestinians, of course, but that doesn't justify it for a second -- especially since Arab anti-Jewish thinking goes back longer and deeper. Well into the last century Moroccans on a harka (a sort of raid against an enemy clan) would fail to discover their Arab enemy so would lay waste to a Jewish settlement instead. British antisemitism can be found in much of the popular literature up to 1940 and I suspect it was repressed but still present after that.
    I'm suggesting that every generation its minority of deeper thinkers and that the mass of people probably doesn't change a whole lot. This is still a very good reason for papers like The Sun and The Daily Mail to remind us constantly what Hitler was all about and The Sun, which broke the Harry story, did at least try -- even if couching its story mostly in patriotic stuff about the royal family (evidently racist -- though not every one of them) and our lads fighting the Bosch, as it were. They at least published a picture of Auschwitz. But the people you refer to don't want to know ANYTHING -- they automatically turn off the news, at least until the sports news comes on, they have a positive loathing for history, they are made uncomfortable by anything which questions the self-serving myths by which they live. I'm not sure what the answer is. It's an argument against populist democracy, I suppose, but I'm afraid it's probably still the best system we've come up with so far. And I must say, as someone with Jewish ancestry who looks very Anglo Saxon, I've heard a lot worse in some countries than in the UK or US. In the UK, we've intermarried so thoroughly, it seems weird that anyone should express racial prejudice, since there's a good chance we have a bit of everything in us by now. At least in Germany most people are well-educated in the facts about the Holocaust. My Pyat series tries to show, however, how all European, American and Middle Eastern peoples conspired to bring about the holocaust, to one degree or another. Sadly,
    I'm hearing repetitions of all that stuff I thought, when I started to write the sequence, was in the past. Maybe Harry's idiotic and insensitive gaff will have done some good.

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