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Harry The Nazi

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  • #46
    I'm sure things haven't changed from a few years ago when many Turks would express their approval of Hitler. Even Greeks weren't altogether unhappy with certain Nazi policies, though they drew the line at being occupied themselves. The fact is that the Nazis became representative of anti-Semitism and the swastika, as we've seen from desecrated cemeteries, has become a significant symbol. As far as I recall the Afrika Korps didn't wear Nazi armbands. If Prince Harry had just worn an Afrika Korps uniform, I don't think anyone would have objected.
    When Mel Brooks wears a Swastika in certain films, nobody objects, because the context is understood. The issue is not whether or not someone should wear a Nazi armband but in which context that armband can be worn.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Mikey_C
      A total red herring put about by the Countryside Alliance, this one. My family have lived in the country - a large proportion of the people there hate the hunt: would you like to see your pet cat savaged to death by the hounds on your lawn? Likewise - a great many city toffs are keen to jump in their 4WDs and play the squire among forelock-tugging serfs for the weekend.
      The hounds, which will all have to be put down if the hunt-ban becomes enforceable. Living in the country myself, Somerset seems fairly pro-hunt, in principle at least. 'course whatever the hunt do, the anti-hunt protestors are just as bad. I know a guy who was first jumped by the hounds while out in the country, and then attacked by anti-hunt protestors for wearing a Barbour jacket!

      Originally posted by Mikey_C
      So, as there's no way it can be about animal welfare (it would surely come way down the list after factory farming and vivisection)
      Not to mention fishing.

      Originally posted by Mikey_C
      it must be about class. It's one way Blair can ingratiate himself with his back bench MPs and 'core' voters without actually having to do anything to affect the status quo.
      But the vast majority of hunters are working class! Blair's core voters are the Scots and the urban working class - the countryside is predominantly Tory and Lib Dem.

      Originally posted by Michael Moorcock
      I believe that there is a strong public anti-monarchist feeling which ultimately must force the monarchy to modify.
      Not as much as you might think - while the Queen lives, at least. Prince Charles is fairly unpopular, but both the Queen and Prince William are supported by the vast majority of Britons, as far as I can tell.

      Originally posted by Michael Moorcock
      just as Blair's dismantling of the House of Lords is suspiciously self-serving.
      Interestingly, even the new, stunted, crippled House of Lords seems to represent the will of the public more effectively than Blair's little fiefdom in the Commons.

      Originally posted by Michael Moorcock
      We lived in Oxfordshire in a cottage attached to a farm. The farmer, who had many fowl taken by foxes, was furiously anti-hunt
      Many farmers and similar large land-owners are, since it's their land the hunt is barging across, but many villagers seem to be pro-hunt.
      Arma virumque cano.

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      • #48
        Well, your experience of Somerset clearly isn't the same as my experience of Oxfordshire, K.
        Rural people DO tend to be more conservative than urban people, of course, because their own interests are best represented by conservatism. I suspect their support of fox hunting has a lot more to do with nostalgia than with self-interest. Again, my own experience is not that most hunts or hunt-followers are working class. Most seem either middle-class or upper-class. Maybe the statistics vary from county to county. Interesting.
        As I touched on in my previous posting, Ad, there is quite a lot of fox-hunting in the US. It could even be on the increase. I talked to a horse-raising land-owner in liberal Northern California who belongs to a hunt organised on English lines. Some hunts in the US do, in fact, practice drag-hunting, which few people object to. Just as greyhounds don't run after a real hare, such hunts don't run after a real fox. All the fun of the chase and nothing torn to pieces at the other end.

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        Pre-order or Buy my latest titles in the USA:
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        Kizuna: Fiction for Japan - The Sundered Worlds - The Winds of Limbo - Modem Times 2.0 - Elric: Swords and Roses

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        • #49
          Intriguing analysis of Murdoch's motives - might explain why he's gone overboard on this one in The Scum (not in the Robert Maxwell sense, sadly). Can an Aussie become a "Sir", though?

          I wouldn't exactly describe Blair as "Born Again" - he was rumoured to contemplating a conversion to Catholicism at one stage, and I'm sure some of the bizarre 'New Age' rituals he is reported to have practised in exotic locations with Cheri would raise a few eyebrows in Southern Baptist circles. Who knows, though, he's probably a Satanist deep down (no offence intended to any true practitioners of the 'Left Hand Path' out there, by the way ).

          To tug one's forelock, dear Adlerian, is to show due obeisance to a member of the superior class. Hopefully I'm not too far out of line by suggesting that open class deference may be somewhat more common in our country areas. Fox-hunting has deep associations with the landed gentry and has always, I suspect, attracted animosity. Oscar Wilde famously wrote of the "unspeakable in pursuit of the uneatable", and I must confess that I have an aversion to the type of people involved in it myself. I'm sure this is common. It is why the Countryside Alliance has laughably attempted to dress itself as a 'civil rights' campaign - accusing its opponents of 'prejudice'.

          Laughable, because these are people with an inborn sense of their own superiority and right to do what they wish on the obscenely enormous amount of land they still own (the proportion has scarcely changed since the Domesday Book - honestly), irrespective of what that nuisance 'democracy' might decide. So for many of us, its just a petty way of getting back at them (I can't imagine Blair proposing land reform).

          Equally laughable are their crocodile tears over jobs and 'industry'. Did we see them extending solidarity to the miners in '84-'85? The very thought is absurd. And of course, all the jobs and nice doggies could be saved if they would only consenting to go 'drag-hunting', following a laid trail rather than a live fox instead. But that would deprive them of the pleasure of smearing fresh blood on their children's faces. It's this sort of thing which sickens a lot of people - ok a bit hypocritical as they dig into their McDonalds' sphincter-burgers and factory-farmed bacon butties, but there you go.

          By the way, Michael. You've yet to convince me of the virtues of constitutional monarchy. They could easily form the figurehead of a fascist regime - look at Croatia during the war. And what gets to me is that the people we elect to represent us have to swear allegiance to these feudal remnants. I find that downright degrading. It distorts our democracy and demeans us in many different ways. We need a written Constitution and Bill of Rights.

          I also think the monarchy has a subtly negative cultural effect. It sometimes seems like the British people don't quite have confidence in themselves. The difference between being a 'subject' and a 'citizen' is pretty vital. I never felt so alienated as a couple of years ago when the street parties were out to celebrate the Golden Jubilee. Which is very sad, because its the only time people ever bother to get together.

          The mass hysteria around Diana's death spooked me completely. Particularly as my Dad died the same week. There were all these people crying for someone they watched on the telly. To be suffering a genuine bereavement and having to watch all this recreational grieving was bizarre in the extreme.

          I seem to have problems coping with things that are completely irrational. The Monarchy is one of them.
          \"...an ape reft of his tail, and grown rusty at climbing, who yet feels himself to be a symbol and the frail representative of Omnipotence in a place that is not home.\" James Branch Cabell

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Michael Moorcock
            I suspect their support of fox hunting has a lot more to do with nostalgia than with self-interest.
            That's certainly the root of my own support for fox-hunting, but then I'm a lower middle-class non-hunter. This nostalgia and love of tradition and pageantry for its own sake is also the main thing supporting the monarchy. Everyone knows that the Queen just says what the PM tells her to, but we still love her!

            Originally posted by Mikey_C
            The mass hysteria around Diana's death spooked me completely. Particularly as my Dad died the same week. There were all these people crying for someone they watched on the telly. To be suffering a genuine bereavement and having to watch all this recreational grieving was bizarre in the extreme.
            To be honest, I feel that the 'mass hysteria' was more a media invention than anything real, in the UK at least. I can't think of anyone - family, friends, or just down the pub, who really gave a damn about Diana's death. I know several who were actually happy about it, seeing her as an attention-seeking media creation who'd done an awful lot to harm the monarchy. In the US, however, I have met people who claim to have cried when they heard about Diana's death.
            Arma virumque cano.

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            • #51
              I don't think Diana's death was a media invention as such, judging by what was going on in London -- the millions of people on the street, the incredible smell of flowers (later rotting flowers) and so on. But this isn't a particularly unfamiliar response to mythologised figures, whether they be real or invented. Most people are too young to remember the death of Grace Archer on the radio series The Archers, when the BBC was inundated with flowers for a purely fictitious character. Valentino is another example. Diana became a symbol of peoples' sentimental idealism. To a degree I think she manipulated the media herself, to achieve this affect. As I said in King of the City, she played the hand she was dealt -- and she played it very well. Her mistake was to take up with a coke-sniffing playboy and get into a car which took the tunnel rather than the bridge. But it's clear that the way people see the Queen, who is a conscientious enough head of state, but none too smart and not a particularly sympthetic person, that mythology always trumps reality.
              We probably wouldn't be a Christian nation if it didn't.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Kalessin
                To be honest, I feel that the 'mass hysteria' was more a media invention than anything real, in the UK at least.
                Well, I was at home on compassionate leave watching all the crap on telly and reading all this psychobabble in the bedsheets, so the media certainly did large it up. I do know people who went up to London though. Someone left all those flowers there.

                Diana was a funny case; half royalty, half 'celeb' (I am also disturbed by the growth of 'celebrity culture'). Bit of an 'Evita'. She was certainly the most identifiably human inhabitant of Buck House (I once met the Queen's ex-chauffeur and he confirmed this), but not universally popular. Rory Bremner's somewhat scathing impression certainly went down well.

                Still, if she really did "an awful lot to harm the monarchy", maybe she didn't leave such a bad legacy after all. Can't say I think much of her sons, though. Hopefully Harry will become such a cokehead his nose will drop off and he'll be found in bed with Tony and Cheri wearing nothing but a nazi armband, a rubber gasmask, and a miniature Union Jack stuck in a convenient aperture. I wonder how much Murdoch would be willing to pay for that shot?
                \"...an ape reft of his tail, and grown rusty at climbing, who yet feels himself to be a symbol and the frail representative of Omnipotence in a place that is not home.\" James Branch Cabell

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Mikey_C
                  Diana was a funny case; half royalty, half 'celeb' (I am also disturbed by the growth of 'celebrity culture').
                  Aye, it's a sick world we live in where people can become famous purely for...erm....being famous. I mean...there are many who deserve their celebrity status - the likes of Steven Hawking and so on - but we live at a time where people will ask 'Jade from Big Brother', a talentless low grade moron if there ever was one, for her autograph, purely because she decided to debase herself on the television for a few months.
                  Arma virumque cano.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Diana's unfortunate demise triggered a bout of mass-hysteria that seemed to turn me into a rare voice of reason in a great village of insanity. I was disturbed that we don't suffer the same shock watching fly-struck starving Ethiopian children...

                    The celebrity culture is dismal not so much for its current incarnations, but for the drossy aspirations it appears to be instilling in our young people. 'I want to work in the media' 'Oh, doing what?' 'Dunno. Just to get exposure'. Neeeyaaaah!!!!

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Interesting phenomenon of hero-worship and morbid curiosity which thankfully has gone is that of the public-hanging, when a famous rogue was often judged by their behaviour on the scaffold and bits of said rogue were eagerly procured. This process seems to have gone on since there were enough of us to form a crowd. It still needs to be studied and discussed but I don't think it's useful to think it's a sign of the times. It's a sign of how humans behave. Remember Byronmania ?
                      Did Ken Russell essay a movie on Listzmania ? The mob has always been there, always moved by certain kinds of hysteria. Populist democracy gives us more freedom just as demographics create more of us. What engaged a smallish number of people two hundred years ago now engages a larger, commercially exploitable, mob.

                      Pre-order or Buy my latest titles in Europe:
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                      Doctor Who: The Coming of the Terraphiles - Kizuna: Fiction for Japan - Modem Times 2.0 - The Sunday Books - The Sundered Worlds


                      Pre-order or Buy my latest titles in the USA:
                      The Laughter of Carthage - Byzantium Endures - London Peculiar and Other Nonfiction - The Sunday Books - Doctor Who: The Coming of the Terraphiles
                      Kizuna: Fiction for Japan - The Sundered Worlds - The Winds of Limbo - Modem Times 2.0 - Elric: Swords and Roses

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                      • #56
                        I meant to add a note about religious hysteria being replaced by celeb-hysteria. Be interesting to isolate the differences, if any.

                        Pre-order or Buy my latest titles in Europe:
                        The Whispering Swarm: Book One of the Sanctuary of the White Friars - The Laughter of Carthage - Byzantium Endures - London Peculiar and Other Nonfiction
                        Doctor Who: The Coming of the Terraphiles - Kizuna: Fiction for Japan - Modem Times 2.0 - The Sunday Books - The Sundered Worlds


                        Pre-order or Buy my latest titles in the USA:
                        The Laughter of Carthage - Byzantium Endures - London Peculiar and Other Nonfiction - The Sunday Books - Doctor Who: The Coming of the Terraphiles
                        Kizuna: Fiction for Japan - The Sundered Worlds - The Winds of Limbo - Modem Times 2.0 - Elric: Swords and Roses

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Michael Moorcock
                          I meant to add a note about religious hysteria being replaced by celeb-hysteria. Be interesting to isolate the differences, if any.
                          Actually, my husband is working on his first novel. It's a sci-fi story that makes such points about royalty. In the story, the new royalty are descendents of today's celebrities.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Kalessin
                            ...

                            The hounds, which will all have to be put down if the hunt-ban becomes enforceable. ...

                            ...
                            Even more than sheep dogs, foxhounds are strictly working dogs, not pets. They are regularily put down when they are too old, or sick, to be of further use to the hunt. As far as I know, they are rarely pensioned off and are not domesticated enough to become household pets.

                            It will still be possible to hunt with hounds using (fox free) dragged scented rags, 'drag hunts'.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by AndroMan
                              It will still be possible to hunt with hounds using (fox free) dragged scented rags, 'drag hunts'.
                              At the moment, the hunt is a functional entertainment - with drag-hunts, it would become pure entertainment. And don't go on about cruelty - fishing is just as cruel as hunting, if not more so.
                              Arma virumque cano.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                I'm lost. Are you guys against hunting altogether or just fox hunting? I don't know anything about fox hunting because I'm in the U.S., but I fully support hunting. If people around here didn't hunt deer, they'd be in our backyards. I'm not exaggerating either.

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