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Harry The Nazi

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  • #16
    Absolutely. Let's get started on the campaign.

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    • #17
      Though I would agree that you can't really compare Alexander to the Nazis, you can't really paint a too rosy picture of him either. He was a product of his time, as well as a capricious megolomanic genius with a barely controllable temper. His reaction to Thebes thwarting him during the 335 B.C. rebellion was to have the city demolished (apart from temples and the house of the poet Pindar), put 30,000 of the population into slavery and put 6,000 people to the sword. It was not an isolated incident.

      But, that is off the topic. I do think with this whole Harry business there is a generation gap difference in view. I don't know about the rest of you, but I am in my 40s and find my views about the Nazis at variance with a lot of younger people that I work with. That is borne out with their indignation at the Sun articles, and shouting and bawling "so what?????" as if they cannot comprehend people's dismay at the incident....nor were they interested in arguments as to the reverse.
      ‘In real life people do not spend every minute shooting each other, hanging themselves or making declarations of love. They don’t spend every minute saying clever things. Rather they eat, drink, flirt, talk nonsense."

      Comment


      • #18
        Though I would agree that you can't really compare Alexander to the Nazis, you can't really paint a too rosy picture of him either. He was a product of his time, as well as a capricious megolomanic genius with a barely controllable temper. His reaction to Thebes thwarting him during the 335 B.C. rebellion was to have the city demolished (apart from temples and the house of the poet Pindar), put 30,000 of the population into slavery and put 6,000 people to the sword. It was not an isolated incident.
        I'm well aware of these accounts. He was by no means perfect. I brought up my specific points to clarify that he was not genocidal.

        I don't know about the rest of you, but I am in my 40s and find my views about the Nazis at variance with a lot of younger people that I work with. That is borne out with their indignation at the Sun articles, and shouting and bawling "so what?????" as if they cannot comprehend people's dismay at the incident....nor were they interested in arguments as to the reverse.
        I'm 26 and I have to say that what you describe here about others my age is exactly what pisses me off about my generation. Everyone seems to have such a nonchalant attitude towards these things. Unfortunately, I also run into a lot of racists on the forums I frequent. There certainly seems to be a good number of Left Hand Path occultists that are also neo-nazis. I really don't even know how to express my anger about these things. My husband is part Jewish, so I get really bothered by it, but it seems that nothing I have to say makes any difference. I'd even wager to say that most people my age don't really see what was so wrong with Nazi Germany in the first place. I've talked with many people who feel that Germany did the right thing. I really don't understand those who believe that the Holocaust never even happened. They say that it's all Jewish propaganda....mathematically, I don't see how that's even feasible. If the Jews were not killed, where the hell did they go???

        I notice even a big difference though between people my age and people just 3 or 4 years younger than me. Most of them don't remember the Berlin Wall coming down. For me, that was a huge historical event that I remember clearly. Of course, it also doesn't hurt that I have a really good memory.

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        • #19
          Well, in my humble opinion, there is everything wrong with it. If someone invited me to a fancy dress party where people would be dressed as Nazis, I'd tell them exactly where to go (the library perhaps?). It isn't a "costume", it's a symbol of hate and death and the very thought of it... GAH!!! :x Perhaps this is hypocrictical of me, but I have no problem with satire, like The Producers for instance, but I don't think anyone is claiming that Prince Harry was being satirical... or even sentient.

          I'll admit that when my friend first told me what Harry had been up to, I laughed, because it's the most ridculously stupid thing that anyone in the public eye could do. In fact, even in a white town like mine, I don't fancy your chances of making it home without a kicking if you're wearing a swastika. I still can't quite believe it. The one argument that my parents bring up in defence of the Royals is that they're "ambassadors" for our country... in which case, it would be nice in the Tourist Board did take charge of them. Perhaps they could be fitted with a "G Chip", which gives them an electric shock every time they commit a gaffe? I think in Harry's case, his stupidity might have overloaded the chip though.

          I bought an air rifle magazine a few months ago for reference photos, and there were a number of adverts for uniforms and artefacts, some of which were from the Nazi forces. That made me feel very uneasy.

          I don't know how to handle the emotional and cultural legacy of the Nazi-era, but I doubt that costume parties are part of the solution.

          Gah!!! :x
          "That which does not kill us, makes us stranger." - Trevor Goodchild

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          • #20
            I bought an air rifle magazine a few months ago for reference photos, and there were a number of adverts for uniforms and artefacts, some of which were from the Nazi forces. That made me feel very uneasy.
            To be fair, there are people who are very interested in the history. I myself am interested in history and I don't exclude Nazis from that interest. It doesn't mean I agree with them. I don't seen anything wrong with people collecting Nazi memorabilia provided it's a purely academic hobby.

            I was listening to the BBC this morning and it was reported that about 50% of the people polled did not know what Auschwitz was.
            That's really pathetic and I agree that the U.S. probably wouldn't do any better. Frankly, I don't understand how you can get through school without knowing this stuff. It was practically drilled into us when I was in school and that wasn't all that long ago. Do we just no longer even speak of WWII? I'm thinking it must be partially the fault of people not caring enough to remember what they've been taught.

            Comment


            • #21
              Shockingly bad taste

              Frankly this was a terrible faux-paus on Harry's part for so many reasons already outlined previously.

              But just to outline something before I offer my own opinion, I'll point out that I am a liberal and (former) Democrat (I won't even go into the former bit right now), and I found this disgusting not just because Nazi history is so relatively recent, but because of what the uniform represents.

              There are funny ways to us something like Nazis (can anyone say "The Producers") or to somehow alter the uniform in such a way to let people know that you're making fun of Nazis, but I didn't see that with Harry. One cannot compare Attila, Genghis, or Alexander to Hitler (or Stalin, I'll just chuck his name in there too), because the situations were so outrightly different. None of the first three were concerned with the erasure of any specific group. They were conquerers and empire builders; brutal and savage, but conventional warriors.

              Hitler (and Stalin) on the other hand were beyond sharing the megalomaniacal traits of the previously mentioned warriors, and they coupled that disturbing trait with severe mental problems and a defined immorality that made them more than savage and barbaric, but outight evil, and not just by the terms of our culture. Genghis, Attila, and Alexander all put down their enemies in often brutal order, but Hitler brought a sick and focused order and logic to his mass murder that sets him apart from the ancient barbarians of old. The same applies to Stalin.

              It is simply not appropriate to masquerade around in such an obvious symbol of evil, especially at this time. Knowing the gloriously short attention span and memory of the average American, I expect in forty or so years when all the WWII survivors have passed on that few will care, and that is unfortunate. As a student of history I believe it is important to remember these lessons, and there is less excuse for us to forget Hitler and his Nazis than it is to not know the whole story of the ancient barbarians. We have a fully recorded, multi-faceted history of WWII at our disposal, whereas much of the ancient history is gone or suspect. We do not have an excuse to ignore this, and we shouldn't.

              Comment


              • #22
                I understand that the Holocaust features pretty high in the history curriculum nowadays, more so than when I was at school. The thing is - to my mind it's not even history as long as there are still people alive who remember it. There was a woman on the radio yesterday who was a member of the Auschwitz orchestra. What could Prince Harry say to her?

                I think for his punishment he should have to go there on a visit and then explain himself to some of the survivors. It's also about time the Royal Family publicly dealt with the fact that Edward VIII was a Nazi collaborator. After his abdication he and his nazi missus had to be posted to a far corner of the Empire and watched by MI5 to keep them out of trouble. So this would be an opportunity to address that little matter as well.

                What a sensational TV programme that would be!
                \"...an ape reft of his tail, and grown rusty at climbing, who yet feels himself to be a symbol and the frail representative of Omnipotence in a place that is not home.\" James Branch Cabell

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                • #23
                  But...I can't see the same reaction to someone wearing the outfit of a commissar of the NKVD. And, to be honest, they were just as 'bad'. In fact, Stalin was probably more of a sadistic genocidal totalitarian than Hitler. It's a nice question of perception, and the better one's understanding of the history (and the facts of history, as far as they can ever be ascertained, rather than propaganda and revisionism) the clearer the perception. Hitler is still the 'bogeyman' of our time - Alexander, Chinggis, Napoleon, Kaiser Bill before him; Stalin, Pol Pot, Saddam after*. With the passage of time and 'living' experience, the 'impact' of even the most atrocious crimes will be lessened in our psyche. BUT therein lies the overwhelming reason for remembrance - not just of the costs, but of the causes - active and passive. Holocaust deniers are a danger, but not as great a threat to avoidance of repetition as those that live in an uninfomed, ignorant bubble of non-self-education. This applies to all ages, not just the younger generations. It's an issue of the necessity of acquiring a personal perspective.

                  *That's a purely British perspective. The 'bogeys' will vary dependent on the timeline and the locus. British Redcoats and the Indian garrison for some; possibly US Marines and Thunderbolt pilots for others. Personal persective. Let's not forget that we live on the last page of the Bumper Book of World History.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    I suspect that Harry probably didn't know about the Auschwitz memorial - which is quite terrible in itself. Just goes to show that someone can grow up, having had every possible advantage, have the best education money can buy (all paid for hard earned public money), and yet the guy can still be a stupid, thoughtless little twonk.

                    Personally I don't think he got enough hard discipline as a child. Hopefully a taste of British Army life will kick his arse into gear. However I suspect, he'll get easy street all the way...

                    William isn't actually that much better - the other week he attended one of the last 'legal' foxhunts. Just goes to show how much of a divide there is between these people and the general public..

                    I just don't understand why we continue to pay for them and fund their extravagant lifestyles. If they want to represent the United Kingdom in an official capacity they should be employed by the state in that role. If not - then they should bloody well get out there and get a life and a career, instead of expecting the state to pick up the bill. In some ways they're just as bad as some of the people down at the dole office - abusing the benefits system.

                    There was a TV programme a little while ago about Prince Charles and his tattered public image. Revealed some quite interesting things about the heir to the throne. For instance, Charles and one of his manservants had a interesting sideline going - selling off official gifts given to the Royal Family and then keeping the money for their own purposes.
                    Batman: It's a low neighborhood, full of rumpots. They're used to curious sights, which they attribute to alcoholic delusions.

                    Robin: Gosh, drink is sure a filthy thing, isn't it? I'd rather be dead than unable to trust my own eyes!

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      [quote="Danisty
                      I'm 26 and I have to say that what you describe here about others my age is exactly what pisses me off about my generation. Everyone seems to have such a nonchalant attitude towards these things. Unfortunately, I also run into a lot of racists on the forums I frequent. There certainly seems to be a good number of Left Hand Path occultists that are also neo-nazis. I really don't even know how to express my anger about these things. My husband is part Jewish, so I get really bothered by it, but it seems that nothing I have to say makes any difference. I'd even wager to say that most people my age don't really see what was so wrong with Nazi Germany in the first place. I've talked with many people who feel that Germany did the right thing. I really don't understand those who believe that the Holocaust never even happened. They say that it's all Jewish propaganda....mathematically, I don't see how that's even feasible. If the Jews were not killed, where the hell did they go???

                      I notice even a big difference though between people my age and people just 3 or 4 years younger than me. Most of them don't remember the Berlin Wall coming down. For me, that was a huge historical event that I remember clearly. Of course, it also doesn't hurt that I have a really good memory.[/quote]

                      If only 50% of people questioned had heard of Auschwitz, I wonder how many would have heard of Birkenau?? I dread to think.

                      Most of the people in our dept at work are 20-25 years of age, and come from wealthy upper middle class families. The way that the UK educational system works these days, about the only history any of these people have learnt is about the Nazis and Hitler. They have learnt all the facts and figures, they have gained their A grades, but are still distanced from the topic and fail to understand it's significance, or even to care, for the most part.

                      I had to listen to one of the girls going on about how she wished people would get off Hitler's back, as he did a lot of good for the German people who were starving during the Weimer Republic. She tried to pass off his beliefs on his upbringing and when she claimed he never knew, and there was no evidence for him knowing, about the gasing of Jews (though she didn't refute it went on) I just could not help but laugh at the plain stupidity of the comments. Really, I just despair.

                      I would say that Harry has probably come out of the same mould as these people.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Actually, he wasn't a bad painter, in the commercial idiom of the day. In researching Munich I made use of some of his paintings. I was thinking the other day that if the buggers had let him into art school in Vienna history might have taken a very different turn. There would probably be some sort of semi-fascist government in Italy, for instance. Oops! I forgot. There is.
                        I suspect most people of most generations had much the same attitudes as the ones you describe Guest. I remember reading in Nell Dunn's Up The Junction, set in South London of the late 50s, early 60s her quoting someone as saying that Eichmann should be made a Lord, not executed.
                        Antisemitism is making a come back, I'm sorry to say. Much of it stems from Israel's treatment of the Palestinians, of course, but that doesn't justify it for a second -- especially since Arab anti-Jewish thinking goes back longer and deeper. Well into the last century Moroccans on a harka (a sort of raid against an enemy clan) would fail to discover their Arab enemy so would lay waste to a Jewish settlement instead. British antisemitism can be found in much of the popular literature up to 1940 and I suspect it was repressed but still present after that.
                        I'm suggesting that every generation its minority of deeper thinkers and that the mass of people probably doesn't change a whole lot. This is still a very good reason for papers like The Sun and The Daily Mail to remind us constantly what Hitler was all about and The Sun, which broke the Harry story, did at least try -- even if couching its story mostly in patriotic stuff about the royal family (evidently racist -- though not every one of them) and our lads fighting the Bosch, as it were. They at least published a picture of Auschwitz. But the people you refer to don't want to know ANYTHING -- they automatically turn off the news, at least until the sports news comes on, they have a positive loathing for history, they are made uncomfortable by anything which questions the self-serving myths by which they live. I'm not sure what the answer is. It's an argument against populist democracy, I suppose, but I'm afraid it's probably still the best system we've come up with so far. And I must say, as someone with Jewish ancestry who looks very Anglo Saxon, I've heard a lot worse in some countries than in the UK or US. In the UK, we've intermarried so thoroughly, it seems weird that anyone should express racial prejudice, since there's a good chance we have a bit of everything in us by now. At least in Germany most people are well-educated in the facts about the Holocaust. My Pyat series tries to show, however, how all European, American and Middle Eastern peoples conspired to bring about the holocaust, to one degree or another. Sadly,
                        I'm hearing repetitions of all that stuff I thought, when I started to write the sequence, was in the past. Maybe Harry's idiotic and insensitive gaff will have done some good.

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                        • #27
                          But the people you refer to don't want to know ANYTHING -- they automatically turn off the news, at least until the sports news comes on, they have a positive loathing for history, they are made uncomfortable by anything which questions the self-serving myths by which they live.

                          You're definitely right there. The girl in question never watches the news because if there is anything "sad or depressing" in it she bursts into tears.
                          ‘In real life people do not spend every minute shooting each other, hanging themselves or making declarations of love. They don’t spend every minute saying clever things. Rather they eat, drink, flirt, talk nonsense."

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by TheAdlerian
                            Right about that painting. He was very good with architecture from what I have seen. I also understand that he was not very good at painting humans. I think that he liked realism and that that was not in vogue at the time that he wanted to go to school. Too bad that he didn’t get in. However, maybe he was nice as compared to who could have gotten in. One never knows.

                            Frankly, I don’t think that the west has ever really dealt with what causes anti-Semitism. I don’t claim to know what does cause it, but I think that the major factor has to do with the inevitable competition between monotheistic religions and Judaism's place as the grandfather of the two offspring. It has to be put down in order for them to be real. So, I think that it will keep coming up until someone (or many someones) finally start talking again about the truth behind religion.
                            I was one of those blinded for a long time. I actually until recently beleived that Christ was proven to be a historical person. That is obviously not the case as various historians and researchers have proven. That lead me to explore Moses and other biblical characters, and lo and behold, they all have their roots in earlier myths. I don't know why this stuff isn't taught in school. Oh yeah, I do know why...

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                            • #29
                              How serious?

                              Best to mention, perhaps, that public portrayals of swastikas, Hitler and other Nazi paraphenalia are all still banned in Germany, with a possible 3 year jail sentence if convicted.

                              As they've just mentioned, again, on BBC2's Newsnight.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by devilchicken
                                In some ways they're just as bad as some of the people down at the dole office - abusing the benefits system.
                                You'd have a hard job getting away with this these days. 'Trainspotting' gave away some of the techniques you'd have to perfect.

                                I did it for 6 years when it was easy, in the '80s. I figured that if Thatcher was determined to inflict mass unemployment on the nation as a means of curing its economic ills, then it might as well be people who enjoyed it. I thought that the workers should be buying me free drinks for letting someone else who really needed it have my job. Of course, that was no good - you had to unemployed and miserable as well. Apart from the miners, nothing was more subversive than the happy unemployed. Which is why exactly the same techniques of police brutality was needed to smash up the 'peace convoy' at the beanfield on the way to Stonehenge festival as was used on our brothers at Orgreave. I, for one, won't forget this.

                                I see the point you're making, by the way, but perhaps it needs qualifying just a bit.
                                \"...an ape reft of his tail, and grown rusty at climbing, who yet feels himself to be a symbol and the frail representative of Omnipotence in a place that is not home.\" James Branch Cabell

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