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  • #31
    Originally posted by Patrick
    SB 899 LC section 5814

    When payment of compensation has been unreasonably delayer or refused... the amount of the payment... shall be increased up to 25% or up to $10,000, which ever is less.

    As you can see, the injured workers are still able to receive penalties based on the above.
    Um, no. That's one of the parts Arnie's bill changes, Patrick; it states: "Section 5814.5 of the Labor Code is repealed." It replaces said section with the crappy "maximum of 15% or to a mere $500 penalty" I mentioned in the beginning of this thread.

    Further, both of the other sections you cited from the current CA law are ammended in Arnie's new bill. So, when you say, "I am aware of the bill and what the reform is," it's hard to believe you based on the evidence, especially the evidence you yourself provide (or fail to provide, as the case may be). Obviously, you don't know what the reforms are.

    Originally posted by Patrick
    There is the documentation. It all coorelates with what I said before. Did I miss anything?
    Yeah, you missed the part about how Arnie's bill changes every single piece of that documentation. Wanna try again?

    Originally posted by Patrick
    "Look, you think the majority of people on social programs are lazy jerks who simply don't want to work."

    I never said that.
    Not in so many words, but it is the basis of your self-professed cynicism, is it not? If not, what is it that does make you cynical? Certainly not the insane profits garnered by insurace companies...

    Originally posted by Patrick
    I have also said that since I cannot document for various reasons, i.e. I have seen thousands of cases and can't remember the names, there are privacy issues to deal with, and I am not willing to jeopardize my job for this.
    What, there aren't any precedent-setting, public-record cases out there you could cite?

    Originally posted by Patrick
    My point, which I tried to make over and over again, is that I am aware of the bill and what the reform is. You are not.
    This, despite the fact that I have read it and you have not. Interesting.

    Originally posted by Patrick
    I deal with California work comp on a daily basis.
    Then doesn't it behoove you to read Arnie's bill? I mean, out of professionalism and such? I read it and I'm just a lowly graphic designer.

    Originally posted by Patrick
    All you have done is pull out one bill...
    Said bill chosen because you said Arnie had it right.

    Originally posted by Patrick
    ...and insinuated that you are now an expert.
    How? By stating that I took the time to read it and you didn't? In fact, in my first post in this thread I said, "I admit I'm not fully knowledgeable about the California Worker's Comp problem." All I am guilty of is presenting facts, Patrick.
    "Wounds are all I'm made of. Did I hear you say that this is victory?"
    --Michael Moorcock, Veteran of the Psychic Wars

    Comment


    • #32
      All that you said is well and good. The problem is that the bill you cite is dated 11/18/03. SB 899 is the recent reform legislation that was enacted. What I quoted IS the reform. What you quote is not.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Patrick
        SB 899 is the recent reform legislation that was enacted. What I quoted IS the reform. What you quote is not.
        Well, well. Right you are. Always good to provide a link, but I was able to find it. Anyway, for those playing along at home, you can read a synopsis of the CA 2004 WC Reforms here.

        Let's look at the new reforms a bit more critically, shall we? Specifically, the new LC 5814, since that's the main topic we're drilling on.

        Note the following changes to the old bill which patently screw workers, especially the legitimate victims:

        1. Penalty was increased to 25%, but a $10,000 cap has been implemented. How nice for the corporation, since the old penalty of 10% commonly exceeded $10,000 on those really horrible cases where someone lost a leg or something. Yeah, let's especially stick it to the ones who really have it bad by instigating a cap. Good thinking. Pro-corporation/anti-worker.

        2. A two-year statute of limitations was also implemented. If a claim is legitimate, it should be paid regardless of time constraints, shouldn't it? Or are we to (unintelligently) assume that only fraudulent cases drag out?

        The new bill cuts temporary disability more than in half, except with regard to the most heinous of injuries.

        The new bill removes the assumption that an employee's chosen doctor's opinion is presumed correct. And that's only one of the unfair changes regarding a person choosing their own doctor. Hell, a person can't even choose their own doctor if that doctor doesn't meet a bunch of other new requirements. And even then, if the employer simply doesn't offer group health insurance, the employer is screwed and cannot choose his physician.

        It's evident that money is being misappropriated, but why would you have it misappropriated to the already rich?

        More importantly, how are these changes stopping fraud!? If you refuse to answer any of my other questions, at least answer that one.

        And finally, if you don't believe the fraudulent cases are the norm, where does your cynicism come from?
        "Wounds are all I'm made of. Did I hear you say that this is victory?"
        --Michael Moorcock, Veteran of the Psychic Wars

        Comment


        • #34
          I had a long post going and lost it all. So I will now make this brief.

          LC section 5814.6 allows for a penalty up to $400,000.

          Penalties are in additional to the benefits. I don't agree with your argument. As I said, employers and insurers are very cognizant of avoiding penalties. Most penalties are for a late TTD payment and propably average $20-$50.

          The two year limit on TTD is in line with most other states. There are a number of injuries where this is extended. This does not mean that injured workers get nothing after that. There are still PPD and vocational rehab benefits.

          I completely disagree with you on the statute of limitations issue. It is, in reality, a non factor. If someone conceivable waits two years to file a claim, it could come into play, but can't you see that is pretty inconceivable?

          I had a long paragraph going on the dr presumption issue. I will say that this is one of the best changes. An expert exam in a particular line of medicine should have some measure of relevance in a dispute. This does not mean that the worker's dr will be ingnored.

          As I previously said, I think a worker should choose his own dr. I agree with you on that point.

          I must say that I think I have tried to answer every question posed to me. I might have missed some, but not on purpose. I will answer you regarding fraud. Most claims are legit. Most claims are not "open" (insurance term) for more than 30 days. Most workers get there treatment and go back to work in a short time, if they miss time at all. (If you ask me for documentation on this, I will tell you right now that I cannot provide it. This is based on experience.) The cases that are open over six month are when the problems start. Even those, probably most of those are legit. I have mentioned this before. But what happens is "secondary gain" becomes an issue. This does not necessarily mean money. For some it does. For some, as I said before, it might be that they hate their job and don't want to go back. Other issues are the psychiatric changes in that they feed on the attention they are getting. Those are just the most common.

          Perhaps there is a disconnect in the use of the term "fraud". I do not mean it necessarily in the sense that the entire claim is fraudulent. I mentioned previously how I have seen migrating injuries. Or someone has a back injury then a year later a heart attack, and they try to bring that into the claim (which is a perfect example why the presumption issue was changed).

          These are attempts to limit the bleeding that was occurring in CA. Will some legitimate workers get screwed? Probably. It is not a perfect system.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Patrick
            I completely disagree with you on the statute of limitations issue. It is, in reality, a non factor.
            TheAdlerian makes a good point about injuries which manifest themselves over long periods of time, often times longer than just a couple years. Do you honestly think that if one's injury isn't timely enough, one should be screwed?

            Originally posted by Patrick
            ...on the dr presumption issue.... This does not mean that the worker's dr will be ingnored.
            The way I read it, if the employer doesn't offer group insurance, then the employee cannot choose their own doctor. Let me know if I'm misinterpreting that part.

            Originally posted by Patrick
            I will answer you regarding fraud...
            I get the 'unethical doctor' argument to the presumption issue, but I don't see how anything you said had anything to do with how limitations and award caps are stopping fraud.

            Originally posted by Patrick
            Will some legitimate workers get screwed? Probably. It is not a perfect system.
            It is that sort of blasأ© attitude about it that freaks me out! This "gotta break a few eggs to make an omlette" garbage is deplorable. What if you were the legit worker who got screwed? Would you still be so cavalier about the 'imperfect system'?

            I'm seeing caps and limitations and presumptions that doctors are unethical, but these changes only serve to put more money in the pockets of the insurance companies, very potentially at the expense of legitimate victims. That sucks.
            "Wounds are all I'm made of. Did I hear you say that this is victory?"
            --Michael Moorcock, Veteran of the Psychic Wars

            Comment


            • #36
              Yes, it's a very "it won't happen to me, so oh well" attitude and it betrays a certain lack of compassion, which generally comes from never having been in the losing position.

              And you're right; it spreads across the entire Republican landscape with regard to programs that benefit the underpriviliged: WC, minimum wage, capital punishment, welfare, and on and on. Hell, even the war in Iraq isn't devoid of this omlette mentality. You don't see Bush's kids on the battlefield do you? No, but he sure is thankful to all those other American parents, isn't he? He has 'daughters' but the rest of the country has 'eggs' to be broken, right? It's an imperfect system, afterall.
              "Wounds are all I'm made of. Did I hear you say that this is victory?"
              --Michael Moorcock, Veteran of the Psychic Wars

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by patrick
                Will some legitimate workers get screwed? Probably. It is not a perfect system.
                I didn't mean to be insulting with the "bad for your business" bit. I was referring to this sort of attitude. It seems to me that an unperfect system had better let a handful of cheaters get away with the conning of some corporate money than let corporations get away with their refusal to pay for a worker's ruined life...as insurance companies are in obvious good health in CA and everywhere....

                Comment


                • #38
                  Thank you, mordenkainen, for saying in so few words what I have been trying to say this entire thread.

                  Oh, and regarding the 'bad for business' comment... no, I wouldn't shift to the right for that or any other reason.
                  "Wounds are all I'm made of. Did I hear you say that this is victory?"
                  --Michael Moorcock, Veteran of the Psychic Wars

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    As I said before, many times in this, I do agree that the employee should choose his own dr. That is different than the dr presumption issue.

                    I can tell you that some people legitimately injured people got screwed prior to reform, some will after. That is the way it is. When you can come up with a perfect system, let me know.

                    What is not being addressed is that business were being run out of CA due to the high insurance rates. You can quote that "rich insurance companies" are making money all you want. What nobody has responded too is that deductibles are rising across the board. The risk is being passed onto the employers and that is impacting the economy in CA.

                    Now I know everybody here views employers as the enemy, but they provide the jobs. This is what annoys me about the left. WC impacts the large corporations and the small businesses. The reforms are ways to get the costs down. To be honest, I don't know what your all advocating. An open check book? Before you protest too loudly on that, think about. What exactly are you advocating? Socialism?

                    It seems you all think that I have a half-hearted concern to someone who is legitametly getting screwed. Far from it. I wish it was not so. But why don't you all address the inflation issues WC causes? Who do you think pays for it?

                    It is not perfect, and that is a shame. And, by the way, I am experiencing it personally. My father-in-law is disabled and on social security and his WC claim is currently denied.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Patrick
                      What is not being addressed is that business were being run out of CA due to the high insurance rates. You can quote that "rich insurance companies" are making money all you want. What nobody has responded too is that deductibles are rising across the board. The risk is being passed onto the employers and that is impacting the economy in CA.
                      The deductibles keep rising because the insurance companies don't want to lose their sickeningly high profit margins. Come on, Patrick, you know good and well that every major insurer continually posts ridiculously high profits quarter after quater! Are you saying they deserve those profit margins and are justified in raising deductibles? Yes or no.

                      Originally posted by Patrick
                      This is what annoys me about the left... To be honest, I don't know what your all advocating. An open check book? Before you protest too loudly on that, think about. What exactly are you advocating? Socialism?
                      As I have said before, 'socialism' is a four-letter word here in the US. Why? Is asking the rich to help the poor such a bad idea? Does my advocacy of such a mentality make me a pinko commie? Or does it simply mean I care more about people than I do money?

                      What are you advocating, Patrick? The typical 'what's mine is mine' Republican meme, I suppose.

                      Originally posted by Patrick
                      I...why don't you all address the inflation issues WC causes? Who do you think pays for it?
                      We do. And it all goes into the pockets of the insurance companies -- one of which you must work for -- instead of the pockets of the underpriviliged where it should go.

                      And of course we don't want an 'open checkbook.' Your sarcasm is appreciated but a bit over-the-top.

                      Patrick, if you would, read mordenkainen's post above and rerspond to it, please. Why do you insist on championing the already wealthy at the expense of the poor?

                      Originally posted by Patrick
                      It is not perfect, and that is a shame. And, by the way, I am experiencing it personally. My father-in-law is disabled and on social security and his WC claim is currently denied.
                      Oh, so because you have a relative who has been screwed by the system your opinion is supposed to be more valid? If anything, I think it's sad that you vote in a manner that is detrimental to your father's well-being. Shouldn't he get the money instead of the insurance company?
                      "Wounds are all I'm made of. Did I hear you say that this is victory?"
                      --Michael Moorcock, Veteran of the Psychic Wars

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Well, I was going to make a few points and then say that I was done this thread. But it would not be fair. That would be saying, let me get the last word and not be willing to get a response, so I'm not going to do that.

                        I do appreciate the debate, and I would continue, but I have taken more time with it than I should have.

                        There has been some sarcasm and I hope none of it was personal. I didn't mean to make mine so. So, no hard feelings, I hope.

                        Adlerian, I would like to single you out. I did really appreciate your posts. If only those who disagreed with each other, politically and economically, could be as polite.

                        Take care my friends. Go bid on the Hawkwind VHS.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Another one bites the dust. A shame. That was some stimulating debate; I learned a lot.

                          And I really felt like I was positioning my queen and rooks for the kill. :twisted: I kid, of course.

                          Cheers, Patrick. It was good exchanging views with you. Wish I could have turned you around on some issues, but oh well. Have a good one.
                          "Wounds are all I'm made of. Did I hear you say that this is victory?"
                          --Michael Moorcock, Veteran of the Psychic Wars

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            they're lyrics from the song "veteran of the psychic wars" by Blue Oyster Cult from the album "Fire of an unknown origin" .

                            You see me now a veteran of a thousand psychic wars
                            I’ve been living on the edge so long
                            Where the winds of limbo roar
                            And I’m young enough to look at
                            And far too old to see
                            All the scars are on the inside
                            I’m not sure if there’s anything left of me

                            Don’t let these shakes go on
                            It’s time we had a break from it
                            It’s time we had some leave
                            We’ve been living in the flames
                            We’ve been eating up our brains
                            Oh, please don’t let theses shakes go on

                            You ask me why I’m weary, why I can’t speak to you
                            You blame me for my silence
                            Say it’s time I changed and grew
                            But the war’s still going on dear
                            And there’s no end that I know
                            And I can’t say if we’re ever...
                            I can’t say if we’re ever gonna to be free

                            Don’t let these shakes go on
                            It’s time we had a break from it
                            It’s time we had some leave
                            We’ve been living in the flames
                            We’ve been eating out our brains
                            Oh, please don’t let theses shakes go on

                            You see me now a veteran of a thousand psychic wars
                            My energy’s spent at last
                            And my armor is destroyed
                            I have used up all my weapons and I’m helpless and bereaved
                            Wounds are all I’m made of
                            Did I hear you say that this is victory?

                            Don’t let these shakes go on
                            It’s time we had a break from it
                            Send me to the rear
                            Where the tides of madness swell
                            And been sliding into hell
                            Oh, please don’t let shakes go on
                            Don’t let these shakes go on
                            Don’t let these shakes go on

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by TheAdlerian
                              So, did Mr. M write that song?
                              Yup. He wrote three songs for Blue أ–yster Cult. I wrote about it in [broken link]this thread.

                              But aren't the lyrics to Veteran of the Psychic Wars just awesome?

                              You know, it's funny -- I put Mike's name and the name of the song after the quote and people continually ask me where my username comes from. I always thought that would be obvious from the quote. Not so.

                              Veteran is my absolute FAVORITE Blue أ–yster Cult song, so it's my duty to spread the word, you know. So, go out and get the Blue أ–yster Cult CD entitled Fire of Unknown Origin. You won't be disappointed!
                              Last edited by Rothgo; 04-22-2010, 08:13 AM.
                              "Wounds are all I'm made of. Did I hear you say that this is victory?"
                              --Michael Moorcock, Veteran of the Psychic Wars

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by TheAdlerian
                                How could a guy that wrote a fantasy novel be a real conservative?
                                I was wondering the same thing. Perhaps reading the book might shed some light on that quandry. Could be it's the 'anti-fantasy' novel; you know, one whose political allegories go in the opposite direction of the common fantasy story.

                                Honestly, though, it's likely that Patrick is more liberal than he let's on but can't seem to let go of a few sticking points that make him cynical or afraid (i.e. social freeloaders, homosexuals, etc.) I see it all the time (in my own parents, for example). I can tell by our debate that he isn't the typical, soulless, money-grubbing conservative; he has a liberal side trying to be set free.

                                Curses. This makes me want to read his book. Nice work, Patrick, you sly fox you. Way to drive book sales!
                                "Wounds are all I'm made of. Did I hear you say that this is victory?"
                                --Michael Moorcock, Veteran of the Psychic Wars

                                Comment

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