Announcement

Collapse

Welcome to Moorcock's Miscellany

Dear reader,

Many people have given their valuable time to create a website for the pleasure of posing questions to Michael Moorcock, meeting people from around the world, and mining the site for information. Please follow one of the links above to learn more about the site.

Thank you,
Reinart der Fuchs
See more
See less

Out with the Neo-Con We Say!

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by TheAdlerian
    The big blunder is not knowing that muslim people can't stand having infidels in their country. It's like you are soiling their soil by even being there. So, they won't stop fighting until we leave.
    I find the increasing tendency to view all politics through a religious prism disturbing. Most of the time it confuses the issue. It gives power to religious leaders. It is quite normal that the citizens of an occupied country should want the occupiers to leave. There are secular, democratic forces in Iraq, who feel the same way. Many of these are organising for a peaceful transferral of power in the elections scheduled for January. They are under attack from the religious extremists and remanants of the Ba'athist dictatorship and deserve our support. Bush will need little justification to extend the occupation indefinitely, Dismissing the whole population of Iraq as irrational, crazed fundamentalists distorts what is going on and will not help the situation.
    \"...an ape reft of his tail, and grown rusty at climbing, who yet feels himself to be a symbol and the frail representative of Omnipotence in a place that is not home.\" James Branch Cabell

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by TheAdlerian
      Right, but there is a difference between not liking people on your land versus not being able to allow them there. I think that it is a big deal to those that it is a big deal to.

      Much like a prostitute, I think that they wanted us to get in do our thing then get out. However, we thought that they would be happy to have us there. This was a mistake because muslims are not supposed to be dominated by another type of people. So, the more time spent there the more sacrilege is committed.

      As always, this does not apply to everyone, but it is important to those motivated toward violence.

      If we were going to a country were wearing a red hat meant that you were an insane immoral pervert it would be wise to leave the red hat home. However, if a person was going there and did not check the customs out it would not be unreasonable to take their favorite red Philadelphia Phillies hat along. Then, when they get there whoops!
      You seem determined to polarize this in terms of religious faith.
      I doubt the majority of the worlds religions would accept domination either. That would be an anathema to the spread of that particular meme.

      No one wants a standing army from another country in their country. Most people do not want to be dominated.
      I don't see how this is exclusive to muslims.
      I'm surprised there hasn't been more resistance.

      If a foreign army invaded the US, toppled the government and were occupying, don't you think there would be at least pockets of resistance?

      Comment


      • #18
        There is truth in what you're saying, Adlerian; I think it's the way you say it that bugs some people because it sounds as if you're stating it in a negative way, as if Muslims are bad for having their beliefs.

        Fact is, if we're going to look at the detrimental aspects of religion, Christians are every bit as bad. I know fundamentalist Christians who are totally for this war -- they feel it's God's will, that he's helping the US wipe out the debauchery that calls itself Islam. It's utter rubbish, but there it is. No one can show me a single Biblical passage wherein Jesus condones killing, but the Religious Right feels very justified in this war.

        So it's all well and good to say the Muslims are fighting back because they can't have infidels in their country, but we cannot afford to ignore the fact that Christianity has been bastardized to the point of being just as blood-thirsty as Westerm people claim Islam to be.

        Not arguing with your point, Adlerian, just adding to it. :?
        "Wounds are all I'm made of. Did I hear you say that this is victory?"
        --Michael Moorcock, Veteran of the Psychic Wars

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by TheAdlerian
          I'm not too happy with an religion that runs a state.

          Also, take a look at the one thread were I posted an online site to the koran. I also posted certain words to look up. You can then see what the beliefs might be. For instance, type in the word Friend.
          Can't help but feeling you are obsessed with your fears of Islam and muslims, really. That's how you sound, like on a personal crusade.

          If you don't like a state run by religion, just look very closely at who's running yours.
          Being on the watch is fine and makes sense, you do sound much like traumatized.
          Google ergo sum

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by TheAdlerian
            I'm not too happy with an religion that runs a state.

            Also, take a look at the one thread were I posted an online site to the koran. I also posted certain words to look up. You can then see what the beliefs might be. For instance, type in the word Friend.
            Can't help but feeling you are obsessed with your fears of Islam and muslims, really. That's how you sound, like on a personal crusade.

            If you don't like a state run by religion, just look very closely at who's running yours.
            Being on the watch is fine and makes sense, you do sound much like being "haunted", sorry for you. No offense meant.
            Google ergo sum

            Comment


            • #21
              We're all starting to repeat ourselves on the question of Islam, so perhaps there no point in continuing it - as we can go upthread if we've forgotten what each other thinks...

              However, Adlerian; just one point - I have met Iraqis. Due to my union work I am in contact with Abdullah, foreign representative of the Iraqi Federation of Trade Unions. He is a modern, civilised, secular person. He saw a great many friends and comrades killed under Saddam. Despite this, he was opposed to the war because he knew the suffering it was called and thought it was the job of the Iraqi people themselves to end the dictatorship. However, now it has happened, he appreciates that the Iraqis can now have free trade unions and some possibility of democracy. He wants to see an end to the occupation following the elections, but is worried about the possibility of fundamentalists or Ba'athists seizing control through the violence.

              I am telling you about Abdullah, because it upsets me if you just see people like him as "one of them" and presume you can predict his responses from an index-linked copy of the Quran. No. They are people just like us. I don't really want to say it- but given the high level of Christian fundamentalism in the States - isn't there an element of "people who live in a glasshouse shouldn't throw stones"? It seems a bit incredible that, with our civilisation's record, we can set ourselves up as paragons of enlightened values, invade someone else's country and say "oh dear look - the poor little savages don't like us because we're not like them".

              I know exactly what would happen if England or the United States were in the slightest danger of being occupied. We'd be subjected to constant lectures about our "patriotic duty" (I'm sure you're getting a fair amount of that now). Is that rational? Is that enlightened? Woe betide anyone who didn't heed its call, though...
              \"...an ape reft of his tail, and grown rusty at climbing, who yet feels himself to be a symbol and the frail representative of Omnipotence in a place that is not home.\" James Branch Cabell

              Comment


              • #22
                Another crusader, good Grief!
                Google ergo sum

                Comment


                • #23
                  I might suggest that you have a problem with fundamentalism, Adlerian. You have said more than once "read it in the Quran." I have, and have pointed out on this site more than once where Allah tells Mohammad who is responsible for vengence.

                  Anyway, my bigger point is that I have also read the Bible. If everyone were to take the Old Testament, including the the five books that make up the Torah, at face value, Christianity and Judaism would seem like the least tolerant religions on the planet.

                  Islam isn't responsible for "Muslim violence" or "Muslim intolerance" any more than Christianity is responsible for right wing fandamentalists perverting the Bible for their own political uses.

                  Also in regards to theocracy, the irony in that part of the world is that Saddaam had one of the most stable non-religious governments in the region. I'm not advocating dictatorships, but it seems interesting to me that the much of the violence in Iraq is a result of factions of Islam competing for political power, rather than being solely attributable to violence against the west.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    I forgot to add that I appreciate your comments about the near-theocracy here in the US, L'E. :D

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by TheAdlerian
                      In regard to all of this I just saw an Islamic entertainment channel on the news that featured a movie with a scene of a rabbi capturing a Christian boy and have a man slit his throat to make matzo out of the blood. Clearly, the movie had good production value and was not made out of someone’s basement. All of the old stuff that most Europeans got rid of hundreds of years ago is still active today. In the US its semi-active.
                      Oh that's horrible!
                      It's only ok if you're from Texas and you use a Chainsaw.

                      Originally posted by TheAdlerian
                      However, many of the people there (mostly women) live a life that we would never be able to stand or want for our women. Also, people get killed over infractions based on a mythology. If that's not haunting I don't know what is.
                      I will agree that the treatment of women is poorer. We aren't perfect here either.
                      Killing over infractions based on a mythology?
                      Depending on your religious orientation, the same could conceivably
                      said for violence toward homosexuals.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by TheAdlerian
                        Also, people like Voltaire challenged the religious. It seems like you have to keep doing it over and over.
                        My point is - let's recognise the many brave people in countries like Iraq who are doing just this. And let's not use it as an excuse to bomb them...

                        PS And it ain't just Muslims: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/e...on/4116335.stm

                        This will probably give the Christians some ideas.
                        \"...an ape reft of his tail, and grown rusty at climbing, who yet feels himself to be a symbol and the frail representative of Omnipotence in a place that is not home.\" James Branch Cabell

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          since i'm not an american myself, i'll refrain from saying anything (in this thread...) about who i think is the current bad boy on the block and what americans should be aware of...
                          i just wanted to ask you guys what you think of this:
                          http://www.911review.org/Wiki/FrontPage.shtml
                          i'm not sure myself....

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            sure looks like conspiration theory. anyone knows more?

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Well, there's a load of this stuff around, and even a pending court case: http://www.rense.com/general57/aale.htm, Personally, I wouldn't put anything past them, but at least we need answers to some of the nagging questions. Hopefully the relatives won't give up (don't think they will). One thing is beyond question - the usefulness of 9/11 to "the New American Century", whether planned or not...
                              \"...an ape reft of his tail, and grown rusty at climbing, who yet feels himself to be a symbol and the frail representative of Omnipotence in a place that is not home.\" James Branch Cabell

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                I haven't read the whole thing, but apparently conspiracy theorists gain much succour from p.51 of this document, Rebuilding America's Defenses: http://www.newamericancentury.org/Re...asDefenses.pdf which talks about a "catastrophic and catalyzing event — like a new Pearl Harbor". They talk about the "Gulf of Tonkin incident" which marked the start of the Vietnam war. Records have been released showing that the CIA were thinking of manufacturing an incident for an excuse to launch an attack on Cuba after the 1959 revolution - one of the suggestions was a terrorist attack on the Cuban exiles. I haven't got time to find it right now - but along with tons of other fascinating stuff (the most popular being some superb pictures of Elvis Presley and Nixon) are here: http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/
                                None of this proves nothing. There's 3 possibilities, in ascending order of possibility: 1. Bush planned it 2. Bush knew about it, but chose not to do anything about it 3. Bush is a complete moron. All these fit the facts, more or less: take your pick!

                                If you want a really interesting site which covers these topics, plus a highly unusual take on the US's relationship with political Islam (sure to wind up both left wing and right wing alike - I think the Adlerian might enjoy it), visit www.tenc.net Hey, there's so many conspiracies going on, we don't even need the lizard people...
                                \"...an ape reft of his tail, and grown rusty at climbing, who yet feels himself to be a symbol and the frail representative of Omnipotence in a place that is not home.\" James Branch Cabell

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X