Alexander Movie

[Mikey_C]

Some greek lawyers are getting very upset about Stone's depiction of Alexander: http://www.guardian.co.uk/internatio...356586,00.html
The truth according to a classical expert who joined the debate on BBC radio the other morning is that "homosexuality" as a category did not exist for ancient Greeks, and it was commonplace for men to have sexual relations with people of both sexes without feeling it gave them any sort of special identity. These relationships apparently wouldn't have resembled in any way the type of equal partnerships we value today.

So if this is correct, then Stone is far more influenced by psychological theories than by anything which actually took place in antiquity, and the Greeks are being driven by Judaeo-Christian morality rather than by pride in their classical heritage.

By the way - this all reminds me of a very old joke:

"I say, I say, I say;
My mother's made me a complete homosexual!"


"If I gave her the wool, would she make me one too?" :lol:

Well, maybe not so funny....

[Danisty]

The truth according to a classical expert who joined the debate on BBC radio the other morning is that "homosexuality" as a category did not exist for ancient Greeks, and it was commonplace for men to have sexual relations with people of both sexes without feeling it gave them any sort of special identity. These relationships apparently wouldn't have resembled in any way the type of equal partnerships we value today.

So if this is correct, then Stone is far more influenced by psychological theories than by anything which actually took place in antiquity, and the Greeks are being driven by Judaeo-Christian morality rather than by pride in their classical heritage.

Agreed, but also, I'm terrified of this movie. From what I've seen of the previews, it's going to be aweful!

The thing about Alexander and others in his time is that there was no such thing as homosexuality or heterosexuality for that matter. Their understanding of physical (and emotional...Alexander was very attached to Hephaistion) relationships was completely different from our own. If Oliver Stone portrayed Alexanders statement of Olympias turning him into her as having anything to do with sexuality, then he missed the point. While Olympias was certainly psychotic (lay off it Adlerian, I'm not trying to use technical terms here...), she also dedicated her entire life to Alexander's best interest. That doesn't make her a good mother, but it also doesn't make her a bitch. Despite what Oliver Stone may have indicated, Alexander loved his mother and he also loved Hephaistion. There is no connection between the two.

[Danisty]

Alexander's men were tired and frustrated. They loved him, but they weren't like him. Most people just don't have that kind of ambition.

I'm sure that it would touch the hearts of many gay people that actually have mothers like that, but have no venue to discuss it.

The point is that Alexander wasn't gay because his mom was crazy and overbearing. Alexander wasn't even gay! Alexander had a very close friendship with Hephaistion that very likely included a physical relationship. It has nothing to do with his mother...they were childhood friends. He even named Hephaistion "Philalexandros" which means friend of Alexander. When Hephaistion died, Alexander laid down with his body and refused to move for days. I have no idea what they showed in this movie, but if you are talking about Roxanne, she was just as crazy as his mother.

For instance, there is erotic love, platonic love, and agape.

Just because the Greeks gave names to different kinds of love doesn't mean that their perspective of love was the same as ours.

[Mikey_C]

B-O-V-R-I-L!(Sp)

[Danisty]

Where are you getting your historical info from? I'm interested.

Both of these sites are really good sources.
Pothos.org
Philalexandros

I also know that Plato noted that homosexuality went up after women became equal players in Athens. The idea here is that the threat of women being equal or perhaps better than some men drove guys into a more “equal� homosexual relationship. Personally, I speculate that this is at least one reason why women were oppressed for so long.

This is a problem with the men, not the women. If you want to talk about domineering parents and the effect on the children, I think we should discuss it fully and not strictly in the context of homosexuality.

However, I can see how homosexual relationships between men could easily happen back then. It’s a lot like prison. The men spend years together without a lot of women that might know from their own ethnic group and probably the best most admirable people that they might know were other men.

I wouldn't say it was a lot like prison, but I understand what you are getting at if you are referring to military men. Others though didn't really have a problem with being around women. I think we've heard enough "heterosexual" stories about Greeks to know they had lots of fun with women too. In fact, they just had lots of fun.

I have noticed that gay media people and scholars tend to interpret the expression of male love as a sign that someone was a homosexual. This is simply not true as many men love each other deeply but its on a mental or brotherly level.

I fully support gay rights, but this irritates me also. Gay people always seem to think they know who's gay.

Please check up on those sites, especially Philalexandros because it explains Alexander's relationship with Hephaistion and his love for him very well. What they shared (whether the relationship was physical or not) was far beyond what most couples share. The webmistress is a professor who did some extensive research on the matter. As for me, well, I'm obsessed with Alexander to a degree so I've tried to learn everything I can about him. He was a very fascinating person. He's one of my heroes.