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Murder of Theo van Gogh

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  • Murder of Theo van Gogh

    I was very distressed to hear of yet more Islam-related violence in Holland.
    This time, the murder of controversial film Director Theo van Gogh, who had been threatened with death over his film "Submission" - about the abuse of Muslim women.

    here's what the BBC have to say:

    Gunman kills Dutch film director

    The link on that page to van Gogh's life is also very interesting. He'd just finished a movie about Dutch politician Pim Fortuyn.

    I think What's happening in Holland is very sad. If it wasn't for the liberal nature of Dutch society Holland's Muslim community could never have existed. Yet some Muslim elements attack the very liberalism that embraced and welcomed them in the first place.

    The result will be a hardening of attitudes amongst the Dutch and the loss of Holland's innocence.
    \"It got worse. He needed something to cure himself. What? he asked. M-A 19 he answered.\"

  • #2
    This is bad for everyone. But unless my memory fails me, wasn't Pym Fortuyn murdered by a person with mental problems, rather than a political motivation?
    \"...an ape reft of his tail, and grown rusty at climbing, who yet feels himself to be a symbol and the frail representative of Omnipotence in a place that is not home.\" James Branch Cabell

    Comment


    • #3
      Mikey_C, Pim Fortuyn was killed by Volkert Van der Graaf, I can't find anything about him being mad. He certainly didn't get a reduced sentence. He said he killed Fortuyn because he thought he was a threat to the "weaker" groups in society, like immigrants and animals.

      I wasn't trying to include his murder in my "Islam-related violence " however, Pim Fortuyn did speak out about the intolerance displayed by some members of the Muslim community towards othe groups in Holland (Like the incident when a lesbian was stoned by Muslim women).

      I think its a shame, because tolerance is supposed to breed tolerance isn't it?
      \"It got worse. He needed something to cure himself. What? he asked. M-A 19 he answered.\"

      Comment


      • #4
        Yes, M-A, you're right, the Pym Fortuyn murder was indeed "political" although
        Prior to the appeal, suggestions in the media that Van der Graaf may be suffering from Asperger's syndrome were rejected by workers at the PBC, who said they had considered and rejected the possibility. (http://www.brainyencyclopedia.com/en...der_graaf.html)http://www.brainyencyclopedia.com/en...der_graaf.html
        Some of us might think animal rights fanatics are "mad", however.

        I remember feeling relieved at the time that Fortuyn's murderer wasn't an immigrant. Now it's happened. :(
        \"...an ape reft of his tail, and grown rusty at climbing, who yet feels himself to be a symbol and the frail representative of Omnipotence in a place that is not home.\" James Branch Cabell

        Comment


        • #5
          Oh, sure, the appalling murder of a documentary film maker, whose death I sincerely lament - also as a colleague - will now be utilized as "proof" that the Muslims are at our throats! Well there are several million Muslims in Europe with whom we live in peace. I'm sure they are disgusted just as we are.
          Google ergo sum

          Comment


          • #6
            appendix

            I hope I included enough "some Muslims" and "some elements of the Muslim communities" in my post to show that I am NOT talking about every Muslim in Holland.

            Nor I am trying to start another "Are all Muslims out to kill us, and bake their bread with the blood of our babies?" thread.

            Theo van Gogh is dead. This is sad. His death is indicitive of the tensions that have built up between Hollands different racial and relegious communities. This is also very sad.

            I hope that this terrible murder will lead to van Gogh's films becoming more widely available, that way his voice can still be heard.
            \"It got worse. He needed something to cure himself. What? he asked. M-A 19 he answered.\"

            Comment


            • #7
              On behalf of Van Gogh's German colleagues our national Documentary Filmmakers' Association has sent a note of condolence and solidarity to the Dutch Directors' Guild.
              -> "Reactie Duitse Documentaire Associatie op moord van Gogh" on http://www.directorsguild.nl/
              I suppose everybody can send their solidarity message to the email address on that site, if you like.


              Look for the "forum" at the Dutch website, there you could leave a message. Most Dutch understand English.
              Google ergo sum

              Comment


              • #8
                Here is some more comment on Theo's death, which I'm inlcuding here for balance.

                Dutch-Moroccan organisations all strongly condemned the murder. "Somebody who kills a person because of his statements and opinions does not know anything about the Koran or Islam. This cowardly deed was done by an individual who does not even respect the holy month of Ramadan," said Abdel Allawi of the Maghreb.nl website forum.

                "Again as a group we will need to prove that we are not radical fundamentalists but just normal Muslims who prefer to live in peace here in the Netherlands. We definitely don't need more tensions." A colleague added: 'There are many young Dutch-Moroccans who loved to have the opportunity to go into debate with Van Gogh. With this terrible murder this chance has been taken away from us."

                Amsterdam mayor Job Cohen backed a call for an impromptu protest on the city's main street, the Dam, on the night of van Gogh's death. But not to hold a minute of silence, he said, as this would not be in keeping with van Gogh's style.

                Cohen urged everybody to make as much noise as they can, "to express as loud as possible that freedom of expression is our dearest possession.
                I'm off to take a look at the dutchdirectors guild now L'Etranger, thanks.
                \"It got worse. He needed something to cure himself. What? he asked. M-A 19 he answered.\"

                Comment


                • #9
                  A comparatively small group of fanatics and counter-fanatics are poised to change a country hitherto known for its tolerance. And the advocates of tolerance will be blamed in the end. What irony!
                  http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3994539.stm

                  But, the consequence cannot be to shelve tolerance, but to be more alert. Tolerance shouldn't be mistaken for closing one's eyes. That's too easy.
                  Google ergo sum

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Things are getting nasty alright. Apparently a local graffiti artist has been ordered to remove the words "Thou shalt not kill" from a commemorative mural overlooking the scene of the crime, because of complaints from a nearby mosque: http://www.zachtei.nl/2004/11/04/000411.html Check out the video link.

                    But all this talk of "WWW3" worries me. Its exactly what the jihadists want. The terrorists are not speaking for the average Muslim any more than the nazi thugs who bombed the school are speaking for us. Let's not let them stop us living in peace.

                    To watch "Submission", follow this link:
                    http://www.genoeg.nu/submission.asf
                    \"...an ape reft of his tail, and grown rusty at climbing, who yet feels himself to be a symbol and the frail representative of Omnipotence in a place that is not home.\" James Branch Cabell

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by TheAdlerian
                      I am not one to say things like "this is going to be WWIII," but I think that it might turn into just that.
                      No, that's dangerous romanticism, like what certain people in the Pentagon are dreaming of.
                      Google ergo sum

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Dutch Muslims rally for unity
                        Tue 9 November, 2004 15:18

                        By Emma Thomasson

                        AMSTERDAM (Reuters) - Dutch Muslims have rallied to condemn extremism and call for unity after a wave of attacks on mosques in apparent revenge for the murder of an outspoken filmmaker by a suspected Muslim extremist.

                        A 26-year-old Dutch-Moroccan has been charged with last week's murder of Theo van Gogh, whose criticism of Islam angered Muslims. Van Gogh is due to be cremated later on Tuesday in a ceremony to be broadcast live on television.

                        Hundreds of people have laid flowers, candles and notes at the spot where Van Gogh was killed. They also left cactuses, a tribute to the filmmaker's prickly nature, and bottles of beer. Dozens of people circled the site on Tuesday.

                        "Stop the senseless violence in our beautiful, free Amsterdam and Netherlands," read one note. "You are not alone. You died for freedom of thought," read another.

                        About 60 young Dutch Muslims wearing orange T-shirts reading "We won't put up with extremism any more" cycled through Amsterdam stopping at mosques to protest against the murder.

                        They then joined a Dutch-Moroccan rally of several hundred in a park near the street where Van Gogh was killed.

                        "Muslims in Amsterdam are very worried and afraid but we want to say that we are part of the community and we are not going to tolerate or accept this," said Samira Abbos, a 34-year-old Dutch-Moroccan television presenter.
                        http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackage...5&section=news

                        Proves my point :?:
                        \"...an ape reft of his tail, and grown rusty at climbing, who yet feels himself to be a symbol and the frail representative of Omnipotence in a place that is not home.\" James Branch Cabell

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Supports it at least, and I'm sure that is the normality in Europe, at least. We should do all we can not to foster further antagonism, but emphasize what we have in common. One thing being: an enormous desire to live in peace with eachother plus a fairly long success story that it works.
                          Google ergo sum

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Strange, and I must say disturbing views on Van Gogh's murder on the "Index on Censorship" website, of all places, under the heading "Free speech fundamentalist on a martyrdom operation":
                            This is abuse of free speech, and for Dutch migrants, it is censorship of their views to boot... But it also allows us without fear of public sensitivity to applaud Theo van Gogh's death as the marvellous piece of theatre that it is.
                            I think, from what I read, that I would probably have found many of Van Gogh's views obnoxious - but to say that this justifies his killing is unbelievable (or am I reading this wrong?). It graphically shows the confusion that the liberal (and the not-so-liberal) left is getting itself into over the whole issue of Islamic extremism. How many of our principles are we prepared to sacrifice?

                            Check it out:
                            http://www.indexonline.org/news/2004...herlands.shtml
                            \"...an ape reft of his tail, and grown rusty at climbing, who yet feels himself to be a symbol and the frail representative of Omnipotence in a place that is not home.\" James Branch Cabell

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              This bit in particular also gets me:
                              Van Gogh's juvenile shock-horror art finally led him to build an exploitative working relationship with Somalia-born Dutch MP Ayann Hirsi Ali, whose terrible personal experience of abuse has driven her to a traumatizing loss of her Muslim faith.
                              The author seems to have retracted the "exploitative" claim - but what is more "traumatizing" for Ayann Hirsi Ali - the abuse or her "loss" of faith? It would seem to be that under these circumstances her abandonment of Islam could more plausibly be seen as a positive act of self-liberation. Nowhere in the article is there any acknowledgement of the issues raised by "Submission", let alone an attempt to engage with them.

                              And yes - someone has been brutally murdered. For making a film. How convenient that the Index's comments board is down!
                              \"...an ape reft of his tail, and grown rusty at climbing, who yet feels himself to be a symbol and the frail representative of Omnipotence in a place that is not home.\" James Branch Cabell

                              Comment

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