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Connecticut Shootings

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  • Connecticut Shootings

    I don't have any easy answers, but here's my 10cents:

    Pandora's box has been open for centuries in the USA, and you are not going to solve the problem by sudden bans of all firearms: you will just crjminalize innocent people who have no intention of harming anyone.

    Career criminals will always find a way to get guns. Period.

    These mass murders of innocents are not carried out by career criminals.

    Americans are NOT gun-crazy: they like their guns and some of them go crazy.

    Keeping guns and crazy away from each other is the real issue in the USA.

    As a former Euro, I'm tired of hearing the "you must ban guns" argument from the other side of the Pond: it's unpragmatic in the extreme, and ignores the huge amount of firearms available to the criminal classes in all European nations.

    OK: maybe that's 25cents, but you get my points.....
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  • #2
    Well, you can't fix crazy. You have to look at the problem and look for a solution you can actually accomplish. And what we can do is start to reduce the number of weapons in the country, period. You have to start somewhere.

    Why does his mother, a woman in a well to do Connecticut suburb need a Glock? What does she think she's going to do, play OK corral with a mugger? HIS gun will already be drawn. The fact that she wants a lethal weapon at all for whatever reason IS crazy.

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    • #3
      Well, there are two issues

      1) the arms legislation :

      In most OCDE countries, arms legislation is strict. Rate of homicide in USA is very high among developped countries and it can be linked in aprt to the weapons laws.

      In France the region with the highest rate of homicide is Corsica. roughly for a popualion of 300 000, you get 20 murders each year, most linked to organized crime. That gives a rate of 6, 66 murder for 100 000 people. corsica id the region of France where you can find the hight rate of weapon by inhabitants and the strongest tradition. sa ratge is 4,2.

      Now, i can accept that when you live in the wild, you need a weapon. I can even accept the weigh of tradition.

      But the cow boy held a six shots, and more often a riffle.

      Now, you can buy automatic weapons ..... much more deadly ...

      Last about this point, i agree that enough wepaons can be found out of the law that one malefactor can arm himself.

      But if you have no weapon at home, if you cannot buy one at the corner of the street, you will not kill by reflex. You will need time to get a weapon and one can hope that some sanity will return, may be only with the fear of being caught while buying the weapon.

      We are not talking about criminals as mafia men, but about " ordinary people " who have weapons or can get some easily.....

      2) The second item is that society is sick.

      A lonesome man, for some personnal reasons, decides to kill people who have never wronged him, because he hates ..... .

      A society who creates not one such man but many and cannot control them is sick somewhere.

      One should get the courage to admit that and look, at the causes ....

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      • #4
        So, Uncle Des, now that you have left Europe behind, what have you got yourself, an AK 47 or a .44 magnum?

        Seriously I think there is a lot to Micheal Moore's somewhat polemically depicted analysis that a culture dominated by fear is a society that amasses weapons (in "Bowling For Columbine"). And the sheer number simply makes access easier for any maniac. Of course, as the slaying of dozens of young people in Norway recently show, there is no safety against deranged assasins, yet it is a cultural thing to respond to problems, fears and frustrations with guns.

        Now, the tragedy in Newton will ironically lead to more people arming themselves, as it was after the previous murders. It is a sickening insult to the victims. Already there are demands that teachers are expected to carry guns. Teachers? In a country that claims to be the leading Western nation? Why must tens of thousands of people own one or often more rapid fire guns and assault weapons? Are they such insecure cripples?
        The Norwegian response was very admirable - the resolve of a whole society not to change and bow to fear and pile up artillery.
        Google ergo sum

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        • #5
          Originally posted by L'Etranger View Post
          So, Uncle Des, now that you have left Europe behind, what have you got yourself, an AK 47 or a .44 magnum?
          I know you are joking, but I eliminate the possibility of an accidental gun death in the home by the simple expedient of not having a gun. My nun-chucks and throwing star are the only actual weapons I have in the home.

          Des
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          • #6
            I had somehow "inherited" two Lee-Enfield rifles (and about 80 live rounds), I was fascinated as a young man by their mechanics, their rugged and efficient "feel" and historical significance. I turned over the ammo to the police and rendered the rifles useless with a welding torch soon after we had our first child, because I did want to be resonsible for whatever a kid could do with them one day in play or anger.
            We used the disfunctional MK V "Jungle Rifle", which really looked smart, in a theatrical piece for a while, but finally, the "attraction" being long over, I took both guns to an official dump where such things were taken care of by the authorites.
            Google ergo sum

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            • #7
              I drifted off telling my stuff, excuse.
              But concerning Newtown - I think there is no argument in the world that can relativate the dreadful incident and all effort must be made to stop this lethal gun fetishism, especially now that we learn that the slayer's mother was hoarding terrible arms and disastrous ammunition. What a sick person she must have been!
              It has got to stop. And hopefully President Obama who can't run for a third period does something.
              The next disenchanted maniac is already out there planning his deadly tour to get some blood stained attention!
              Google ergo sum

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              • #8
                I've never agreed with firearms being amassed by the general populace in a country at relative peace ... the result is almost invariably that situations like this will occur (regardless of whether the firearms are inside or outside the law), good examples are this, the infamous Columbine, and Hungerford in the UK.

                I was brought up for a good few years in a country where a real war was taking place ... I could fire a pistol by the age of 8, and by 10 I could field strip, clean and fire an FN-FAL. Yet I have heard of none of the same problems among my peers.

                Why would this be?

                In my personal opinion it is because in Rhodesia there were no reasons to use those weapons outside the possible usage in war ... therefore ironically, the number of weapons and people able to use them did not cause a problem because they were survival tools. In the US (and a lot of other 'western' countries) they are no more than status symbols or a 'right'.

                Thats my two pennorth ... make of it what you will and slate it if you must, but it will remain my personal opinion until proven false.
                Twitter: The system that put paid to the old adage 'politicians only lie when their lips start moving'

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                • #9
                  Here's an interesting thing that's doing the rounds on facebook. Food for thought.

                  I'm hardly an advocate on rampant state control, but it seems to beg belief that drugs are highly illegal in the States, yet guns are not. It seems to me pretty obvious that to stop these things from happening you have to get the guns off the street and that means out of people's homes too. There is simply no legitimate excuse for needing an arsenal of weapons. Obviously legislation won't immediately solve the problem because the number of guns in private hands is vast, so even if a European model was imposed it would take a generation and a change of mind set to reduce these events from being a regular event.
                  forum

                  1. a meeting or assembly for the open discussion of subjects of public interest
                  2. a medium for open discussion, such as a magazine
                  3. a public meeting place for open discussion

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                  • #10
                    It also wouldn't address the issue of illegally held guns, but then again that would be an issue for the federal authorities.

                    And no doubt the 'right to bear arms' would be quoted more than once during the process too ...
                    Twitter: The system that put paid to the old adage 'politicians only lie when their lips start moving'

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by opaloka View Post
                      Well, you can't fix crazy.
                      No, but we can do a lot as a society to comfort those who are socially isolated and in emotional pain. The US worships its athletes and denigrates the intelligent loner.

                      Reducing ease of access of people like this to weaponry will also be for the best. Keep your guns well locked up.
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                      • #12
                        unfortunately,des, that is the same for most countries .... and has been for decades.

                        the only realistic way to alter this is to make politics reflect the populace ... but that would involve politicians placing the welfare of the public above their own bank balances ... ie not gonna happen
                        Twitter: The system that put paid to the old adage 'politicians only lie when their lips start moving'

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                        • #13
                          A colleague in work from North Carolina is well into his guns and said something the other day that made me think.

                          He was telling me about the multitude of guns he has liberally (ahem!) distributed in draws and bedside cabinets around his house. All loaded and all freely available to his 2nd wife and sons should the house be burgled.

                          If, God forbid, one of his sons decided that his father's recent divorce was worth killing people over, he could arm himself to the teeth with legally held guns without any difficulty whatsoever.

                          My colleague holds the license to own and carry the guns, not his wife or sons so why are the guns available to them?

                          My suggestion, therefore, would be that all legally owned guns are held in locked gun cabinets where the license holder is required to demonstrate that he or she is the only person who has access to the keys. If they fail to comply with this simple and reasonable rule, they lose their license and their guns.

                          It works well in this country and would reduce the risk of unlicensed family members with possible mental problems from arming themselves for their random rampages.

                          You can't stop the crazies. You will never rid the nation of illegally held guns. But you can significantly reduce the risk of unlicensed people getting their hands on guns held legally by other family members.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by The English Assassin View Post
                            Here's an interesting thing that's doing the rounds on facebook. Food for thought.
                            Did something catch your eye in this very moving blogg written by a troubled mother of a boy who's pretty borderline and ...?
                            The costs of therapy and treatment!
                            As a European it didn't occur to me that the absence of general health insurance simply makes it unaffordable for many to take a kid to a see a psycologist or start a therapy!
                            Surely an aspect worth some scrutiny. And on the long run cheaper than guns and their grim side-effects.

                            (Apart from that I believe that any society should invest more in education, health and culture than in arms)
                            Last edited by L'Etranger; 12-17-2012, 06:27 AM.
                            Google ergo sum

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by porcus_volans View Post
                              He was telling me about the multitude of guns he has liberally (ahem!) distributed in draws and bedside cabinets around his house. All loaded and all freely available to his 2nd wife and sons should the house be burgled.
                              One would think it would be better to improve security on the house to make it more difficult to burgle then having to resort to having loaded firearms freely available in drawers and cabinets. (I'm sorry but that they're pre-loaded let alone unsecured strikes me as wholly irresponsible behaviour on the part of your colleague though I'm sure he sees it differently.)

                              What this sort of thing says to me is that Americans, like your colleague, have allowed Fear to get the better of them. It is, of course, in the self-interest of certain interested parties in the USA - namely firearms manufacturers, I suspect - that the populace should be kept in a state of perpetual fear, whether it's fear of the Red threat, the Yellow threat, the Black threat, the Brown threat, etc. etc.

                              As Frank Herbert put it:
                              I must not fear.
                              Fear is the mind-killer.
                              Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
                              I will face my fear.
                              I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
                              And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
                              Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
                              Only I will remain.
                              I honestly can't comprehend the mentality that is now advocating that primary school teachers(!) should be armed; that's beyond irrational and into an whole new area of crazy fucked-up shit.
                              _"For an eternity Allard was alone in an icy limbo where all the colours were bright and sharp and comfortless.
                              _For another eternity Allard swam through seas without end, all green and cool and deep, where distorted creatures drifted, sometimes attacking him.
                              _And then, at last, he had reached the real world – the world he had created, where he was God and could create or destroy whatever he wished.
                              _He was supremely powerful. He told planets to destroy themselves, and they did. He created suns. Beautiful women flocked to be his. Of all men, he was the mightiest. Of all gods, he was the greatest."

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