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Israel and Gaza

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  • #16
    Stop!
    I refuse to accept a statement that the Israeli government ordered the killing of children. If that were the case the Israeli people would chase it out of office. We are talking of a government based on a constitution and it is not a terrorist state or dictatorship. The government's policy of deliberately targetting Hamas leaders is worth discussing and indeed causes a lot of controversy, also in Israel. But the calculated murder of children is nowhere close to the reality. Children, however, are indeed often among the victims of Israeli retaliation or preemptive strikes. This is deplorable, this is terrible and it should oblige all parties and the world all the more to reach a sound accord, but it is not about "ordering to kill children".
    The Nazis did such things, and by the way, Israel's enemies, HAMAS, Hisbollah, and earlier movements did never take precautions to butcher only adult civilians during their guerrilla or missilie attacks.
    It is a terrible setback that Israel can be perceived by some this way today.
    Last edited by L'Etranger; 12-20-2012, 06:07 AM.
    Google ergo sum

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Nathaniel View Post
      it is possible for 2 people or groups with oposing views to both be wrong.


      Still the children are dying.
      Last edited by zlogdan; 12-20-2012, 06:48 AM.
      "From time to time I demonstrate the inconceivable, or mock the innocent, or give truth to liars, or shred the poses of virtue.(...) Now I am silent; this is my mood." From Sundrun's Garden, Jack Vance.
      "As the Greeks have created the Olympus based upon their own image and resemblance, we have created Gotham City and Metropolis and all these galaxies so similar to the corporate world, manipulative, ruthless and well paid, that conceived them." Braulio Tavares.

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      • #18
        Not that this changes the fact of children dying, but according to the Geneva Conventions, if one side refuses to wear uniforms and identify themselves to the world as combatants then any deaths of civilians resulting from attacks on them is ALWAYS their fault. This applies to groups like Hamas and the Taliban. I don't agree with all Israeli actions, but they are not the ones wearing plain clothes and shooting from houses full of innocents.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by L'Etranger View Post
          Stop!
          I refuse to accept a statement that the Israeli government ordered the killing of children.
          I concur - I think its more about that awful phrase "collateral damage" that a deliberate attack against civilians. I don't agree with their policy, but I don't believe that the objective is to kill children - even if that is the inevitable outcome...
          forum

          1. a meeting or assembly for the open discussion of subjects of public interest
          2. a medium for open discussion, such as a magazine
          3. a public meeting place for open discussion

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          • #20
            To be honest, I would rather live in Israel than in many countries, including mine. I have two great friends living in Israel by the way and I do not judge them based on their government but I don't agree with bombing civilians no matter which side is doing it. The Hamas commits a serious error and is of course to be blamed just as Israel is.

            I still maintain my opinion: Israel government and military know they might kill children in their retaliation. So they are aware that their tactical objectives will kill children. It was a sort of a simplification to call it "killing children" with a purpose, but they are aware of the results of their acts. I could not order such attack.

            It might have been the Vatican, Russian government, USA or Brazil , I would still feel the same, and we know that they all did it once in their story. There is nothing that justifies the killing of children, once it is done you sold your soul to Arioch.

            If it is more fair, to the proper analysis, I say also that the Hamas kill children. None of the sides are right.
            Last edited by zlogdan; 12-20-2012, 11:28 AM.
            "From time to time I demonstrate the inconceivable, or mock the innocent, or give truth to liars, or shred the poses of virtue.(...) Now I am silent; this is my mood." From Sundrun's Garden, Jack Vance.
            "As the Greeks have created the Olympus based upon their own image and resemblance, we have created Gotham City and Metropolis and all these galaxies so similar to the corporate world, manipulative, ruthless and well paid, that conceived them." Braulio Tavares.

            Comment


            • #21
              Israel does take extensive efforts to avoid hurting civilians. The IDF usually scatters fliers over areas in Gaza that are about to be bombed, requesting residents to evacuate. It also phones individual residents to warn them that their houses (identified as harboring ammunition and rockets) would be targeted.

              Of course, the best way to avoid civilian casualties is to find a peaceful solution to this conflict, but as have been mentioned, this might not happen in our lifetime

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by The English Assassin View Post
                snip ...

                Unlike the Brits, the Israelis have nowhere to go. And the Israelis will have to stop building settlements and give back much that they have taken. Of course none of this will ever happen in my lifetime.

                Not actually true. There seems to be a growing Israeli Diaspora - only the other week I was bailed up by a determined Israeli expatriate lass who tried her level best to sell me beauty soap - lost cause in the case of my face, I'm afraid - or should that be "terrified" ?!?

                I think they concentrate mostly the States, but I've met them in New Zealand, and they seem to be well liked.
                sigpic Myself as Mephistopheles (Karen Koed's painting of me, 9 Nov 2008, U of Canterbury, CHCH, NZ)

                Gold is the power of a man with a man
                And incense the power of man with God
                But myrrh is the bitter taste of death
                And the sour-sweet smell of the upturned sod,

                Nativity,
                by Peter Cape

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by L'Etranger View Post
                  Stop!
                  I refuse to accept a statement that the Israeli government ordered the killing of children. If that were the case the Israeli people would chase it out of office. We are talking of a government based on a constitution and it is not a terrorist state or dictatorship. The government's policy of deliberately targetting Hamas leaders is worth discussing and indeed causes a lot of controversy, also in Israel. But the calculated murder of children is nowhere close to the reality. Children, however, are indeed often among the victims of Israeli retaliation or preemptive strikes. This is deplorable, this is terrible and it should oblige all parties and the world all the more to reach a sound accord, but it is not about "ordering to kill children".
                  The Nazis did such things, and by the way, Israel's enemies, HAMAS, Hisbollah, and earlier movements did never take precautions to butcher only adult civilians during their guerrilla or missilie attacks.
                  It is a terrible setback that Israel can be perceived by some this way today.

                  May I enlighten you?
                  Qibya

                  And there was a horrible incident during the Al Aqsa Intifada that actually made the BBC, because someone had managed to capture most of it on video camera: a couple of boys, Jamil and Ahmed Abu Aziz, down to the local dairy or its equivalent in the refugee camp they were in, to get something sweet to eat, got hit by shrapnel from a shell fired by an IDF tank just clearing the road ahead of them. I don't recall the IDF ever actually making reparations for this killing - at random, I might add.

                  "Israel's leaders, determined to stop future suicide attacks, announced last week a more aggressive policy of moving back into Palestinian territory and arresting militants."
                  Or course, killing children at random because the army chiefs couldn't be bothered getting off their fat asses to keep people informed, is proven guaranteed to keep the supply of "terrorists" coming.

                  But power does not only corrupt, it makes stupid. And absolute power - the arbitrary power of life and death over a given segment of a population - makes people absolutely stupid.
                  sigpic Myself as Mephistopheles (Karen Koed's painting of me, 9 Nov 2008, U of Canterbury, CHCH, NZ)

                  Gold is the power of a man with a man
                  And incense the power of man with God
                  But myrrh is the bitter taste of death
                  And the sour-sweet smell of the upturned sod,

                  Nativity,
                  by Peter Cape

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    In_Loos_Ptokai has already made it clear on another thread that according to him the Jews are not a people, and so do not deserve their own state. It does not matter to him that millions of Jews in Israel and around the world define themselves as a people. He would tell each and every one of them that they are wrong. Then, after claiming that, he moves on to demonise Israel on each and every occasion, as if he's saying: "Look, these Jews, who didn't deserve their own state to begin with, get one - and look what atrocities they commit!". Now his solution to the "Israeli Problem" has surfaced: It is his dream that all Israelis would scatter across to globe where "they seem to be well liked".

                    Well, In_Loos_Ptokai, keep on dreaming.

                    Demonising Israel would just make any prospect of peace in the Middle East completely intangible. Peace comes with reconciliation, not with demonisation.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      OMIGAWD! Oren, calm down!

                      When I read that Israel seems to be separated into four ethnic segments - Ashkenazim, Sephardim, Russians, and Arabs - and the Sephardim at one point felt so aggrieved with Israel at large there was a group of radicals calling themselves the Black Panthers, and that the Russians feel themselves cut off from Israeli society in general, and the Arabs - well, when they're allowed to take part in the Knesset but not allowed to actually do anything useful, and when someone tries to make their remembrance of their enforced separation from the rest of their people, anNaqba, illegal and nobody takes notice, it strikes me that Israel has more problems internally than it has enemies externally. And therefore it makes a sort of sense, admittedly a rather horrible sort of sense, for Netanyahu et al., in power in Israel, to talk loudly about wanting peace, while busily maintaining a feeling of being threatened by the Rest Of The World Minus USA (TM) when there is no actual threat.

                      As regards
                      Then, after claiming that, he moves on to demonise Israel on each and every occasion, as if he's saying: "Look, these Jews, who didn't deserve their own state to begin with, get one - and look what atrocities they commit!".
                      it frankly feels like ad hominem to remark that I have heard exactly that same argument from Zionists on why Palestinians should not have their own state, particularly in reference to Gaza. The issue is not one of ETHNICITY, it is one of POWER.

                      Does any people deserve to be locked down under blockade and regularly attacked? I've got a copy of the book Lodz Ghetto somewhere. I can dig it out and quote some of my more distant Polish Jewish relatives on that question.

                      And I do happen to know what the Jewish opinion of the likes of the Expulsion of the Sephardim is. It makes any state committing such an act an illegitimate one. How did Israel start? Operation Dalet, following on from the massacre of Deir Yassin, etc, resulting in the expulsion of the majority population of Mandatory Palestine, the Palestinian Arabs. And that expulsion was part of Zionist planning - just read any history of Zionism.

                      Last but not least:
                      Demonising Israel would just make any prospect of peace in the Middle East completely intangible. Peace comes with reconciliation, not with demonisation
                      I've grown up with the demonisation of Palestinians and other Arabs and Muslims being standard fare in the mass media. It's very well hidden, or the people in the media don't notice their own bigotry and the audience don't hear it because it chimes with their own bigotry. The US is one of the worst in that respect, and Israel's much the same. And example of that: I was debating online with some American Zionists about a decade ago, and I mentioned the Arab Peace Initiative of 2002, and one of the Zionists said, "How can you believe the Arabs?"

                      Please tell me how Israel is supposed to reconcile with a part of the world it refuses to stop demonising?
                      sigpic Myself as Mephistopheles (Karen Koed's painting of me, 9 Nov 2008, U of Canterbury, CHCH, NZ)

                      Gold is the power of a man with a man
                      And incense the power of man with God
                      But myrrh is the bitter taste of death
                      And the sour-sweet smell of the upturned sod,

                      Nativity,
                      by Peter Cape

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by In_Loos_Ptokai View Post
                        When I read that Israel seems to be separated into four ethnic segments - Ashkenazim, Sephardim, Russians, and Arabs - and the Sephardim at one point felt so aggrieved with Israel at large there was a group of radicals calling themselves the Black Panthers, and that the Russians feel themselves cut off from Israeli society in general, and the Arabs - well, when they're allowed to take part in the Knesset but not allowed to actually do anything useful
                        The Israeli society is diverse, a melting pot of different groups (many with common heritage) and this is one of the reasons why it's so fascinating. The differences between the different groups become less apparent as time goes by. As in any democracy, the power of any group is proportional to the number of votes it gets at the elections.

                        Originally posted by In_Loos_Ptokai View Post
                        As regards
                        Then, after claiming that, he moves on to demonise Israel on each and every occasion, as if he's saying: "Look, these Jews, who didn't deserve their own state to begin with, get one - and look what atrocities they commit!".
                        it frankly feels like ad hominem to remark that I have heard exactly that same argument from Zionists on why Palestinians should not have their own state
                        The majority of Israelis support a Palestinian state alongside Israel. This has just been reiterated by Shimon Peres at the World Economic Forum in Jordan yesterday.

                        Originally posted by In_Loos_Ptokai View Post
                        How did Israel start? Operation Dalet, following on from the massacre of Deir Yassin, etc, resulting in the expulsion of the majority population of Mandatory Palestine, the Palestinian Arabs. And that expulsion was part of Zionist planning - just read any history of Zionism.
                        Modern Israel started with immigrants from Europe during the late 19th century, who came to mandatory Palestine, settled it, and started building a viable country. I'm sure that's in any credible history book.

                        Originally posted by In_Loos_Ptokai View Post
                        Last but not least:
                        Demonising Israel would just make any prospect of peace in the Middle East completely intangible. Peace comes with reconciliation, not with demonisation
                        I've grown up with the demonisation of Palestinians and other Arabs and Muslims being standard fare in the mass media. It's very well hidden, or the people in the media don't notice their own bigotry and the audience don't hear it because it chimes with their own bigotry. The US is one of the worst in that respect, and Israel's much the same. And example of that: I was debating online with some American Zionists about a decade ago, and I mentioned the Arab Peace Initiative of 2002, and one of the Zionists said, "How can you believe the Arabs?"
                        There is a mutual trust problem that needs to be bridged. Efforts toward this are made many times by individuals. My aunt's sister work at The Parents Circle Families Forum ("Palestinian-Israeli Bereaved Families For Peace"), an organisation that promotes peace, reconciliation and tolerance between Israeli and Palestinians. One of the main forces behind this commendable forum is the mother of a classmate of mine who was killed by a Palestinian sniper. She chose to try to heal the terrible mental wound by dedicating herself to pursuing peace between Israelis and Palestinians.

                        Regarding the Arab Peace Initiative: yes, it was certainly a missed opportunity, at least to see how sincere are the sides. However, the initiative was recently resurrected in a new form. That's one of the reasons for the enthusiastic peace speech by Shimon Peres yesterday in Jordan. Most people in Israel hope that this time around something good would materialise.

                        Originally posted by In_Loos_Ptokai View Post
                        Please tell me how Israel is supposed to reconcile with a part of the world it refuses to stop demonising?
                        Please check the curriculum in Palestinian Authority schools and compare it to the one in Israeli schools, and tell me which side demonises who and to what extent.

                        Again, the bottom line is that demonisation of any side would just perpetuate the problem, and so would complete one-sidedness.
                        Last edited by Oren; 05-27-2013, 03:58 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          There is a mutual trust problem that needs to be bridged. Efforts toward this are made many times by individuals. My aunt's sister work at The Parents Circle Families Forum ("Palestinian-Israeli Bereaved Families For Peace"), an organisation that promotes peace, reconciliation and tolerance between Israeli and Palestinians. One of the main forces behind this commendable forum is the mother of a classmate of mine who was killed by a Palestinian sniper. She chose to try to heal the terrible mental wound by dedicating herself to pursuing peace between Israelis and Palestinians.
                          I am glad to hear that there are still attempts to bridge the gap and bring the bereaved families on both sides together. I thought that was necessary when the peace talks broke down in 2000; I am overjoyed that others have thought the same and those nearest the fire have thus worked to put out the flame. Your aunt's sister is to be commended for her work; so too the mother of your classmate.

                          Here's a toast to the future success of their work! To peace between Israel and Palestine!
                          sigpic Myself as Mephistopheles (Karen Koed's painting of me, 9 Nov 2008, U of Canterbury, CHCH, NZ)

                          Gold is the power of a man with a man
                          And incense the power of man with God
                          But myrrh is the bitter taste of death
                          And the sour-sweet smell of the upturned sod,

                          Nativity,
                          by Peter Cape

                          Comment

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