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Israel and Gaza

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  • Israel and Gaza

    First let me say something: I have two great friends in Israel with their respective families. I really admire the country and the people there.

    But I cannot agree with their government bombing the Gaza strip and killing civilians. I agree that there must be an answer to what the Hamas is doing, but the it seems that children are dying and to me, that is the worst thing it can happen in a war. I am not really debating which side is right, but it seems Israel is responding more destructively and not seeking the peace.

    Sorry about bringing this subject, but I could not stay quiet.
    "From time to time I demonstrate the inconceivable, or mock the innocent, or give truth to liars, or shred the poses of virtue.(...) Now I am silent; this is my mood." From Sundrun's Garden, Jack Vance.
    "As the Greeks have created the Olympus based upon their own image and resemblance, we have created Gotham City and Metropolis and all these galaxies so similar to the corporate world, manipulative, ruthless and well paid, that conceived them." Braulio Tavares.

  • #2
    I agree with you, I hate what Israel is doing to Palestine. At the same time I don't think there can be peace in the region with organizations like Hamas in charge of anything. There is no other solution but for those two groups of people to accept each other and share space, and the radical zionists and islamists are in the way.What a horrible mess.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by zlogdan View Post
      ... I am not really debating which side is right, ...
      it is possible for 2 people or groups with oposing views to both be wrong.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Nathaniel View Post
        Originally posted by zlogdan View Post
        ... I am not really debating which side is right, ...
        it is possible for 2 people or groups with oposing views to both be wrong.

        The present case, Israel x Hamas/ Palestine is an example of how proper is your statement in that regard.
        "From time to time I demonstrate the inconceivable, or mock the innocent, or give truth to liars, or shred the poses of virtue.(...) Now I am silent; this is my mood." From Sundrun's Garden, Jack Vance.
        "As the Greeks have created the Olympus based upon their own image and resemblance, we have created Gotham City and Metropolis and all these galaxies so similar to the corporate world, manipulative, ruthless and well paid, that conceived them." Braulio Tavares.

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        • #5
          And at the beginins, Israel helped the Hamas to exist as a counterweight to Arafat ...

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          • #6
            Given the timing of the UN vote followed by Israel's sanctioning of a huge building program, can there be any doubt that Israel has "weaponised" housing/family life? And if so (and that's not much of an if), at what point in the past was the housing project known to all to be an act of ongoing aggression?

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            • #7
              Since it started I think.

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              • #8
                While the trauma of the Holocaust is to a great extent the cause for the creation of Israel (the other being the concept of it being the historical homeland of the Jews, very vaguely put), the struggle for her creation was not to the benefit of all who lived in the area. The ensuing wars which extended the territory (and we all tend to forget how tiny and patched Israel 1948 was) created more injustice, while of course Israel build up even stronger military power to protect the gains and herself. Initially supported by the Soviets, but they soon switched to the West and Western military support in a region deemed strategically vital by both competing power blocks.
                So Israel and most of the countries and their fates were for long dominated by other interests - whose pond was the Mediterranean Sea going to be? Like Britain during WW2 Israel was for long a Western safe ground amid very hostile nations - not only because of Soviet diplomacy, but also because of over a century of double-tongued Western politics. Many Arabs were justifiably disenchanted (remember Lawrence of Arabia's painful conflicts?), and this happened again and again.
                Now disenchantment alwaays opens the doors for radicals! After a pretty radical El Fatah came to a sort of agreement with Israel, and still little improved for the disowned Palestinians living under appalling conditions in the refugee camps, in came a new breed of radicals, such that were religiously fanatical - Hisbollah plus the reckless Hamas. Result: This strengthened the hardliners in Israel.
                Israel is full of interesting, deeply human people who disagree with their government - they just don't get a sound majority there, because the hardliners can point to two things: the threat from outside (and often from within) and to the "historical and Biblical mission" to create a safe (= powerful) and spacious homeland, Zion.
                People on either side who stretch their hands out in peace too far get killed - Saddat, Rabin, the theatre director Juliano Mer-Khamis in Jenin (whoi was of mixed Jewish and Palestinian stock) and many others.
                This means there are still great interests involved, and surely much money in this. How much profit have smugglers made during the blockade of Gaza expoliting the plight of their fellow Arabs? And what about all the international weapons dealers? And would an average Israeli construction company reject the offer to pull up several thousand new flats in exchange for the phantom of a peace they can no longer imagine?



                Yes, I am all for ending the suffering, but it is largely in the hands of larger forces to insist.
                Last edited by L'Etranger; 12-14-2012, 11:29 PM.
                Google ergo sum

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                • #9
                  I don't support Israel's policies now but I think it's important to remember that their shift to the political right was shaped by the fact that they were immediately and repeatedly attacked by all of their neighbors.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by opaloka View Post
                    I don't support Israel's policies now but I think it's important to remember that their shift to the political right was shaped by the fact that they were immediately and repeatedly attacked by all of their neighbors.
                    Aye, that is worth remembering, but it's also worth remembering that since becoming a nuclear state Israel has not really been attacked by any other nation state. While the Palestinians are far from blameless, Israel's reaction has been so disproportional as to be inexcusable by any objective measure. It's a pity because there was much to recommend in Israeli society for many years, but now it has nothing to recommend it. It's also pretty rich for Israel to condemn terrorism to the extent that they do seeing that before the formation of the Israeli state Zionist Jews were not above committing gross acts of terrorism themselves upon the occupying British. Ultimately the Palestinians et al have to back down on the terrorism (as justified as I think it probably is) because there is no way that it is going to work (and I'm no Islamophile btw). Unlike the Brits, the Israelis have nowhere to go. And the Israelis will have to stop building settlements and give back much that they have taken. Of course none of this will ever happen in my lifetime.
                    forum

                    1. a meeting or assembly for the open discussion of subjects of public interest
                    2. a medium for open discussion, such as a magazine
                    3. a public meeting place for open discussion

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                    • #11
                      It's pretty obvious that the Israelis are not interested in Palestine being a state. They want the territory for themselves, I'm not sure where they expect the refugees to go because nobody wants them.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by opaloka View Post
                        I don't support Israel's policies now but I think it's important to remember that their shift to the political right was shaped by the fact that they were immediately and repeatedly attacked by all of their neighbors.
                        This seems a bit of a simplification. Both side have played recurring roles as aggressors.

                        But maybe you're counting Palestinian attacks launched from neighbouring countries? Or attacks like the Fedayeen raids from Nasser's days? Because it looks to me like the last time Israel was seriously attacked by any of its neighbours was the Yom Kippur War in 1973. Note that I take "attacked by all their neighbours" to mean outright warfare between nations, not border skirmishes or raids or attacks from non-state actors (regardless of whether state condoned or not).

                        It seems to me the move to the right is of much more recent vintage. I'd like to say it seems to have more to do with the era that gave rise to the first and second intifadas and the Oslo Accords, but I'd need to pretend I was writing a history paper (and do a pile of research) to make that argument with any confidence.
                        Last edited by Heresiologist; 12-15-2012, 11:29 PM.

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                        • #13
                          You have to look at the ages of the leaders and which wars they fought in as young men. That does give hope, however, that there are reformers on the way.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by The English Assassin View Post
                            It's a pity because there was much to recommend in Israeli society for many years, but now it has nothing to recommend it.
                            I'm not sure from what perspective you are looking at this, but I can still think of many recommendable things in Israeli society: its world-renowned hi-tech industry, the advanced research in its universities (garnering several Nobel prizes in the last few years), the fine Israeli film industry, its willingness to help other countries when disaster strikes, and the openness of many parts of its complex society; this springs to mind:

                            Tel Aviv trumps New York to be named world's best gay city

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Oren View Post
                              I'm not sure from what perspective you are looking at this, but I can still think of many recommendable things in Israeli society: its world-renowned hi-tech industry, the advanced research in its universities (garnering several Nobel prizes in the last few years), the fine Israeli film industry, its willingness to help other countries when disaster strikes, and the openness of many parts of its complex society; this springs to mind:
                              Tel Aviv trumps New York to be named world's best gay city
                              The Israeli society and culture are great. But their government ordering killing of children in the name of freedom, well, this is a quite different story.
                              "From time to time I demonstrate the inconceivable, or mock the innocent, or give truth to liars, or shred the poses of virtue.(...) Now I am silent; this is my mood." From Sundrun's Garden, Jack Vance.
                              "As the Greeks have created the Olympus based upon their own image and resemblance, we have created Gotham City and Metropolis and all these galaxies so similar to the corporate world, manipulative, ruthless and well paid, that conceived them." Braulio Tavares.

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