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  • A place for everyone...

    In a previous thread, Berry wrote:

    Originally posted by Berry Sizemore
    Let us everyone encourge these people publicly to stay on target and cease the nasty attacks on our oppenents. If you perceive that your oppenent is a very weak case, let's try to use more convincing. We all have to do our best to retard the hatred that can foment at BBSs like these.
    Originally posted by Berry Sizemore
    Let's make this forum a place for everyone, including those who need to learn. As a child, I was exposed to racism, and it took a few years to learn that words and attitudes of racism are unacceptable. Everyone can learn, especially when people they know and respect show them that hateful attitudes are uncool.
    Originally posted by Berry Sizemore
    Let's all do our best to nurture a more respectful place. Please coach one another overtly when personal attacks are made. Let's not have a boss at MWM. Let's have a unified group. A balanced group.
    While I largely agree with everything that's quoted above, I find it very difficult to put such things in to action. Since I first joined this forum, I have dipped my toe in to a number of political debates, and I've often felt as if I was dragged under by currents I couldn't fight. I tend towards fluffy-bunny philosophy rather than hard economics, politics or social/psychoanalysis, but I'm trying to learn more about the "realities" of this world (as others perceive them) through what I read here. Generally I don't see nearly as much agreement and "back-slapping" as the more conservative posters often accuse the forum of fostering, but if there is any sort of tendency towards liberalism (with a hard of soft "L", as you wish) I would venture that it isn't especially surprising to find readers who are drawn to the work of a Liberal/Anarchist author favouring left-of-centre policies. That's not to say that alternative viewpoints can't be welcomed and absorbed, it's just that (in my humble opinion) if you go to a Harley convention, you don't expect everyone their to be driving SUVs. No doubt there will be a number of bikers there who also own SUVs and would be happy to discuss them with you, but to walk into a Harley convention and express surprise that everyone has bikes strikes me as a little strange.

    It's true that this forum can often seem to be dominated by left-of-centre opinions, but as a man who grew up in (and continues to live in) a part of the country which is dominated by right-of-centre opinions, I find this refreshing and welcome... possibly vital to maintain my faltering grip on any sort of joi de vivre.

    Having said that, the "conservatives" I'm familiar with in my home town tend to be rather knee-jerk and reactionary, with very little proof or logic to back up their opinions. It is interesting to find people posting here with well-thought through arguments that at first unsettle be but slowly start to make sense. In my own mind, and my own journals, I can balance out the different voices which are raised here and make my own opinions.

    What I personally find suspicious is when a chap comes along and confines himself entirely to political or social topics, without once expressing any sort of interest in, or exposure to, the writing of Michael Moorcock. I know have a tendency towards paranoia, and this is a public forum, but first and foremost this community is founded on an appreciation for Mr M. That doesn't mean we all have to agree with the man, lick his shoes clean or drink his urine as if it were wine... but it's harder to shake the notion that someone might be a Troll, if that poster doesn't write a single word that suggests they could pick Elric out of a line-up.

    Trolls, and "hate speech", are really up to The Cosmic Balance to unravel and make a judgement on, but when a sucking black hole of ignorance and prejudice-with-a-logical-mask-on appears in a thread it just depresses me. I've tried to ignore it, or cheerily put across an alternative point of view, but I don't have the tools to debate on a level that places Knowledge and Professional or Academic Experience over Sentiment and Hope*. I understand that some will see this as a flaw in my character, but I'm happier in my own skin now than I've ever been, so if it is a flaw then it's one that suits me. Still, when that sucking hole appears, I have a tendency now to withdraw and hope that someone with more spine and better intellectual resources can counter the points, fighting Brain-fire with Brain-fire.

    So, to cut a long story short (too late!), I would love to be able to rise to Berry's challenge and help to educate and contribute to a balanced group, but the most I can do is spew out rambling posts like this one and worry if I sound a bit too much like a hippie.

    In case anyone is actually keeping score out there, because someone else brought it up, my IQ is 136... and as you can see from the above, that means very little indeed. It's a shame there's no way to record a person's Soul Quotient.

    In closing (hurrah!), I'm not sure if I should have posted this in the Community Exchange, so apologies if anyone clicked here expecting me to actually have discovered a secret new island with a decadent, anarcho-liberal commune where we could all go to live. :)

    [Edit: At point marked "*" I should probably replace the words "Sentiment" and "Hope" with "Compassion" and "Honesty"... a little common courtesy wouldn't go amiss either, but it's not a legal requirement]
    "That which does not kill us, makes us stranger." - Trevor Goodchild

  • #2
    Originally posted by TheAdlerian
    If your IQ was measured with the WAIS-III that means that you are super super smart, as the cap score is 140! What test was used?
    Well, I was foolish enough to claim "Honesty" as one of my virtues, so I have to admit I have no idea what system they were using. I know that 100 was considered to be "average", by definition, so it's fair to assume that 200 was the "cap" score. Please just assume I'm lying if that makes your life easier.

    To return to the actual topic of this thread, I suppose it all comes down to whether posters see MWM as a "community" or a "forum". Personally I see it as the former, and I like to see people wipe their feet at the door and say "Hi" before they jump in to the debates... but if other posters see this site purely as a place to exercise their brains and stretch their analytical muscles, then I can't stop them, even when it (metaphorically) tracks mud all over the carpet. I feel incapable of defending (what I believe are) the essential attributes of the community that I value... but I'm starting to get tired of being deliberately misunderstood, devalued or insulted by association, and I'm looking around for a way to work out my frustration constructively.

    I really started this thread as a way of apologising for my own impotence in the face of Trolls, and I'm really hoping that someone will be able to come up with a valid strategy for keeping the (metaphorical) carpet clean and the friendly fires burning. I value this site, and I've made good friends here, and I feel I've made a contribution. I'm not leaving, and I'm not going to stop posting until my capacity to do so is removed by the powers that be... so I'm afraid you are all going to have to put up with my attempts to talk "nice nice", for the forseeable future. At times I suppose we are all called upon to fight for what we value at various points in our life, and I value MWM, so I intend to fight for it in my own obscure (possibly annoying) way until my avatar is deleted, and my name is mud.
    "That which does not kill us, makes us stranger." - Trevor Goodchild

    Comment


    • #3
      I value MWM's community, too. It pains me when I see threads degenerate into pointless bickerings. Thus, I generally stay out of the political section of the site. It may be sheepish, and I know that a lot of the time members go to great lengths to argue their points without ever succumbing to mindless insults, but I never feel comfortable posting in here.

      Most other sections here seem relatively free of such instances, so I'll stick to them.

      P.S. I took one of those IQ tests earlier... I scored 125. Now I feel inferior! :(
      Call me cockey, but if there\'s an alien I can\'t kill, I haven\'t met him and killed him yet!

      Comment


      • #4
        My Johnson O'Conner testing put me at between 143 and 145... that and 75 cents will get me a cup of coffee. I've been holding back on politics because I didn't watch the debates. That and because I don't believe that either candidate is worth getting worked up over. Just once I'd like to have an election where I'm voting for someone instead of against the other guy.

        Originally posted by Bob
        I value MWM's community, too. It pains me when I see threads degenerate into pointless bickerings. Thus, I generally stay out of the political section of the site. It may be sheepish, and I know that a lot of the time members go to great lengths to argue their points without ever succumbing to mindless insults, but I never feel comfortable posting in here.

        Most other sections here seem relatively free of such instances, so I'll stick to them.

        P.S. I took one of those IQ tests earlier... I scored 125. Now I feel inferior! :(

        Comment


        • #5
          No argument there, but you have to work with what you have before you. That's reality. I wish it were otherwise too, but to not see the obvious differences between the two evils is a cop-out in my view. I wish there were more differences, true - but the ones that exist are also enough.

          Comment


          • #6
            Political Posters

            I have also been concerned by people who show up only to argue in PP. I always thought it was nice when two people who'd been kicking the crap out of each other in PP met up in "rock and roll" and realised that they have the same taste in music (Bill likes Queen. That makes him alright in my book:))

            Then I thought "Hey, I'm not one of those people am I?"

            As usual Maths provided the Answer. Using this site's search function I found out how many threads I'd posted on (51) and divided the number of those threads that were in PP (17) by the total, then multiplied by a hundred to get a percentage I found myself to be merely 33.3% political. Phew!

            The author of this thread also came out pretty healthily. Dee has posted on 272 threads in all, of which only 17 were in PP, making Mr Crow Seer a mere 6.25% political

            There were posters who came up 100% political, and all I can say to them is "hey the rest of the forums pretty nice too you know!"
            \"It got worse. He needed something to cure himself. What? he asked. M-A 19 he answered.\"

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Political Posters

              Originally posted by M-A_19
              The author of this thread also came out pretty healthily. Dee has posted on 272 threads in all, of which only 17 were in PP, making Mr Crow Seer a mere 6.25% political
              But how many of those 272 posts were bad jokes about cats? I hate to think what my cat percentage is...

              The main reason I've tended to avoid posting in this section in the past is that, as I say above, I've been afraid of being dragged under... but I keep coming back here because I genuinely want to learn and to expand my understanding of the world, and my curiosity always drags me back eventually. But when a thread stops being nourishing, and starts to feed back on itself then I don't see how that helps anyone.

              For this reason, perhaps we need to be more vigilant about threads going off-topic too often... and in that spirit I beg you all not to try to bring Bush and Kerry back in to this thing, or attempt to define what is or is not meant by the word "Liberal". If you don't have anything to say about your feelings regarding the Political Pressures section, then please just let this thread die in peace. Thank you.
              "That which does not kill us, makes us stranger." - Trevor Goodchild

              Comment


              • #8
                I posted a little of what I should have said here in a different thread, but I have to put my two cents into this one, as well.

                Thanks, Dee, for the clarity. I agree with you whole-heartedly that this is a community, rather than a forum. As someone who has engaged in a lot of political and philosopical talk on the board, I can honestly say that the only reason I do is the sense of communitiy, which usually makes it safe. Having said that, I usually drop out of threads that make it seem otherwise, which is a shortcoming on my part.

                Having said that, I also appreciate the respite that the site represents. My job is serious, but this is usually fun, and I think it should be. When it stops being fun and engaging, I don't see the point. Having said that, at it's best, this is a great place. I've learned a great deal and have made friends.

                I'm a little sad that Dee, a most valuable member of the community, and someone who I like and respect a great deal, feels ill at ease in any thread. That, of course, says nothing about him, and a great deal about the potential venom of some threads. I guess where I'm going with this is maybe it's up to us to keep the community a community, rather than a target range. It's certainly not Berry's job--he does enough already, and with all due respect to him, I don't think it should be his job to set a tone. He shouldn't have to be a cop, and we shouldn't create situations where anyone needs to be.

                I had a point when I started, but true to form, I seem to have lost it... :D I guess I needed to say that I like this place and I want to keep liking it.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I should have posted in this thread what I posted in this thread: [broken link]
                  Last edited by Rothgo; 04-21-2010, 02:43 PM.
                  The cat spread its wings and flew high into the air, hovering to keep pace with them as they moved cautiously toward the city. Then, as they climbed over the rubble of what had once been a gateway and began to make their way through piles of weed-grown masonry, the cat flew to the squat building with the yellow dome upon its roof. It flew twice around the dome and then came back to settle on Jhary's shoulder. - The King of the Swords

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I wonder how a brown man like myself would score on an IQ test. I thinking I'm white enough to score well...
                    \"Bush\'s army of barmy bigots is the worst thing that\'s happened to the US in some years...\"
                    Michael Moorcock - 3am Magazine Interview

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Considering the drift in this topic, perhaps someone needs to start a thread in community
                      exchange where people can compare the "proportions" of their IQ scores...
                      Perhaps a bit of candid photography, too, of Forum members curled up with copies of
                      Locke's Essay Concerning Human Understanding and The Consolations of Philosophy
                      by Boethius, hm? Know what I mean? (Nudge, nudge.) :lol:

                      Forgive me if I absent myself from such a series of exchanges.

                      Really, this is a somewhat silly tangent from Duncan's original, fairly serious post.
                      Jerico's ironic comment on the tangent seemed most أ  propos.

                      LSN

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I started the whole IQ thing, so I only have myself to blame, but I'm declaring that discussion off-topic. Jerico and LSN's posts were funny, but I'm trying out my "vigilant" mode for a little while. So "IQ = Off-topic". Sorry. Likewise everything TheAdlerian said about Bush, Liberals, blah, blah was totally off-topic.

                        Berry, I read the post you linked and it was very interesting. Now that I've finally woken up to how much I value this community, it would be a shame to see it come to an end... but then, when you're living in the multiverse, you have to expect continual change! But I agree that we can still make the best of what we have, for however long we have.

                        For those having trouble "grasping" the concept of a community:

                        Community n, pl all the people living in one district; group with shared origins or interests; the public, society.

                        In this context we are a group of people with a shared interest in the fiction and non-fiction writing of Michael Moorcock, and the various musical and multimedia projects associated with that man.

                        If anyone here does not share our interest in the writing of Michael Moorcock, then they should not be here at all, in my humble opinion. If anyone wishes to be part of a community of "philosophers" and leave the rest of us to wallow in our "stagnation", then I'm sure there are a number of forums out there just begging for new members. Here, I consider the flexing of intellectual (or literal) muscles little more than showing off, and if it scares posters away then it's more than bad form. If you wish to belong to a community you have to contribute and consider the feelings of others, not simply stand around stroking your own oily torso... ew! I hope I was being metaphorical there.

                        At this point I'm probably talking to myself, and if the ship is going down this is probably achieving little more than rearranging the chairs on deck...

                        [Edited to avoid potential offence with flippant closing remark]
                        "That which does not kill us, makes us stranger." - Trevor Goodchild

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by DeeCrowSeer
                          shortened by L'E

                          Berry, I read the post you linked and it was very interesting. Now that
                          I've finally woken up to how much I value this community, it would be a
                          shame to see it come to an end... but then, when you're living in the
                          multiverse, you have to expect continual change! But I agree that we can
                          still make the best of what we have, for however long we have.

                          For those having trouble "grasping" the concept of a community:

                          Community n, pl all the people living in one district; group with shared origins or interests; the public, society.

                          In this context we are a group of people with a shared interest in the
                          fiction and non-fiction writing of Michael Moorcock, and the various musical
                          and multimedia projects associated with that man.

                          If anyone here does not share our interest in the writing of Michael
                          Moorcock, then they should not be here at all, in my humble opinion. If
                          anyone wishes to be part of a community of "philosophers" and leave the rest
                          of us to wallow in our "stagnation", then I'm sure there are a number of
                          forums out there just begging for new members. Here, I consider the flexing
                          of intellectual (or literal) muscles little more than showing off, and if it
                          scares posters away then it's more than bad form. If you wish to belong to a
                          community you have to contribute and consider the feelings of others,
                          not simply stand around stroking your own oily torso... ew! I hope I was
                          being metaphorical there.
                          I very much agree. This place is for me a "club" (rather than a community, although some relations that started here are developing in that direction, and even friendships seem possible). And it is a portal for the "unorganized", "free" Moorcock fans out there and those interested to find first information and discuss what they think and "experience" in connexion with the "Moorcock World" or the inspiration they found in his books.
                          Moorcock in his many aspects, even if one might not like each and every of his books, stands for LOVE and not HATE. We all contribute as best we can, but out of our own experience and socialisation. So I for one with Europe as my main background, I can at times indeed become impatient with postings that are directed against Muslims (whose integration here is more desirable than their alienation) or against any other relious or ethnic group. And I get impatient with postings that waste our time - because they are either childish or too off-topic. Also attempts to "relativate" Hitler and the crimes of the Nazis will prompt my severest opposition. We've had that and hopefully it is over for some time.
                          Regarding the PP section I expect, however, once the elections for the so-called "Leader of the Free World" are over the climate will become less tense.
                          Look at the "Activisim" section, for instance, people behave much more
                          civicly in this area ( which by the way is an often more interesting place ... and more demanding, as it might require you to do something instead of philosophize. Accordingly there are fewer postings, hehe).
                          I often wondered where many of the earlier registrated members have gone to, we had people also that spoke less refined English and, and I don't see many traces of them coming to MWM anymore (although we take pride in having over a thousand members ...) Yes, Dee, maybe they have been scared away by the intensity with which some people dominate this board. Intensitiy in frequency, output, smart remarks and threads that are intransparent after a few long posts of the "Inexhaustibles"
                          .
                          Google ergo sum

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by LEtranger
                            I often wondered where many of the earlier registrated members have gone to, we had people also that spoke less refined English and, and I don't see many traces of them coming to MWM anymore (although we take pride in having over a thousand members ...) Yes, Dee, maybe they have been scared away by the intensity with which some people dominate this board. Intensitiy in frequency, output, smart remarks and threads that are intransparent after a few long posts of the "Inexhaustibles".
                            That's an excellent point, and... well, I feel a little guilty now. Whether or not it was intentional, those criticisms could quite easily be levelled at me, and I am now left to wonder about my own "intensity" with regard to this site.
                            "That which does not kill us, makes us stranger." - Trevor Goodchild

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Oh, Dee, I don't think you are the problem here, as your great sense of humour is nearly always detectable and thereby you usually offer a "light way" to take whatever you seriously mean to say.
                              MWM is not what it is without you.
                              Google ergo sum

                              Comment

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