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Makes you think about who the Good Guys and who the Bad Guys are...

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  • Makes you think about who the Good Guys and who the Bad Guys are...

    Begging your pardon, but are these really the defenders of Freedom?

    The freedom to pee on the corpses of your enemies?
    Google ergo sum


  • #2
    Originally posted by L'Etranger View Post
    Begging your pardon, but are these really the defenders of Freedom?

    The freedom to pee on the corpses of your enemies?
    Sadly, abuse of corpses is not unheard of in conflicts the world over, as is the dehumanisation of the enemy. On the one hand, there is the argument that war brings out extreme behaviour in us - this kind of thing might seem a reasonable response if the corpses were those of insurgents who recently blew your mates to pieces with an IUD. But on the other hand, I know several members of the armed forces who would never stoop to such conduct, no matter the provocation. I come down on the side of the latter - it's simply shameful and brings dishonour on the forces as a whole. Surely we should require our men to hold themselves to higher standards than this.
    The name that can be named is not the true name.

    Comment


    • #3
      There may always be explanation. Those Talebans who will cut off the heads of the next Westerners will point to the example of these soldiers ... and say this explains their despicable brutality.
      But what culture is behind this? In anyway superior to the beastly Talibans? And what kind of leadership is there that allows such a thing to happen? Don't soldiers get any other training except how to pull triggers? And what "spirit" reigns the forces if troops don't even think it could be problematic to have pictures taken of such an outrageous act. No, because they think it is right to pee on the enemy fallen. And don't these numbskulls even think how much in danger such an act puts all the other soldiers?
      S-i-c-k-e-n-i-n-g!
      Google ergo sum

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      • #4
        Plus ca change........

        When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
        And the women come out to cut up what remains,
        Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
        An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.
        Go, go, go like a soldier,
        Go, go, go like a soldier,
        Go, go, go like a soldier,
        So-oldier ~of~ the Queen!

        Kipling's The Young British Soldier
        Papa was a Rolling Stone......

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        • #5
          I agree this is a major issue but I am not surprised in the least. The USA is a gigantic country and we have our fair share of violently deranged people, many of whom are socially-functional enough to make their way into the military where they are encouraged to kill. Of course I don't want to make it sound like the USA's armed forces are brimming with psychopaths but it isn't illogical to presume there are a few in the mix... making the rest of them look bad.

          Another point that should be addressed is how humans behave in groups; Plenty of psychological studies have shown that when you get a group of people together and throw them into a situation (violent or otherwise) some pretty damned unusual things can happen. Add a psychopath into a group of normal but weak-willed/follower types of people and you've got what appears to be a whole group of psychopaths.

          ----Hypothetical Example----

          Person #1: "Haha. Bob put that dead *****er's hand on that other one's crotch and took a picture. That's hilarious!"

          Person #2: "Yeah... umm... heh... it sure is. Haha."

          Person #2 might be uncomfortable and find this situation offensive but will most likely say nothing as to do so would be to alienate himself from the group. Unfortunately this usually further encourages similar behavior until it escalates into something truly terrible... like the torture images that came out of Guantanamo.

          Again, I want to clarify that I am not trying to justify this behavior or suggest that it is present throughout the entire military... but I think this is a situation where the phrase "One bad apple spoils the bunch." applies.

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          • #6
            I agree with you Thanos especially in today's military where for a number of years the standards had to be lowered to meet recruiting quotas because a lot of potential recruits were being turned off by the excessive tours in Iraq. I'm sure a number of people who might not have qualified probably slipped thru the cracks. And this isn't a knock on the Marines but of all the different forces in the military the Marines are probably the ones that peer pressure is felt most strongly. Not sure about today's Marines but I knew a number of them in my college days and in their stories of military life the Corps faith in the buddy system was obvious. One guy even told a tale of a marine who forgot to blacken the eyelets of his boots when he polished them, a no-no because the sunlight glinting off them could give you away in the jungle, VietNam days, According to him he had to shout "I am a buddy killer" while doing a discilpine run. Don't know how true the story was but it sounded plausible given the Marine attitude of Semper Fi and the Corp.
            herb

            Man spends his time on devising a more idiot proof computer. The universe spends its time devising bigger idiots. So far the universe is winning.

            http://www.wolfshead.net/wolfshowl


            http://www.wolfshead.net/books

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            • #7
              ...

              The foul art of dishonouring the enemy dead has been going on a lot longer than the mention of it in Shakespeare's Henry IV. On the other hand, You Tube has a lot to answer for.
              Last edited by Kymba334; 01-12-2012, 07:32 PM. Reason: mental fog
              Mwana wa simba ni simba

              The child of a lion is also a lion - Swahili Wisdom

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              • #8
                I am one hundred percent certain that the marines are under explicit orders not to do anything that even approaches desecrating a corpse. I don't know how often this happens but these particular soldiers are pretty much through.

                It's true about recruitment standards over the last decade, even just in terms of basic physical strength. I met a guy a few years ago who had just joined the marines and he was about 5'4", ten years ago that would have been unheard of.

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                • #9
                  Something else I just thought of is we're now well into the video game generations... so I'm sure a very high percentage of US troops grew up playing violent video games. Now, I won't say that playing a violent game makes you a violent person... but the behavior of people in these games is very disrespectful toward the enemy players. For instance it isn't unusual to "teabag" an opponent after you have killed them (standing over and sitting on the corpse repeatedly).

                  I myself play World of Warcraft and other games where I engage in PVP (Player vs. Player) and I see that kind of behavior all the time. People commonly type /spit /slap or /lol just to annoy or insult their opponents. I'm certainly not an expert in psychology but it seems to me that this kind of behavior would have some sort of subconscious effect on a person over time.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    op,

                    Never meant to imply that Marines as a group in general would condone such actions but that if one guy, in admittedly stressful circumstances, came up with the hare brained idea then it's likely he'll find a couple to go along because of the philosophy of the buddy system they espouse.

                    I never joined the military mainly because of problems with authority but when the different branches of the service were trying to coax me in, right at the end of Nam when the military wasn't popular, with a lot of nice educational deals, I also did fairly well on the tests they gave you at the end og high school, I was sorely tempted but never gave a thought the Marines. As one supervisor once commented about me in an annual review, "it's not like I don't play nice with other kids, it's just that I don't need other kids to play". Me and the buddy system aren't close friends, I've never been much of a joiner or networker so the Corp did not appeal to me tho I can see how it would to others.
                    herb

                    Man spends his time on devising a more idiot proof computer. The universe spends its time devising bigger idiots. So far the universe is winning.

                    http://www.wolfshead.net/wolfshowl


                    http://www.wolfshead.net/books

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I personally think this sort of conduct should be treated as "Treason". Even if it is usually an act by very few soliders it endangers the entire cause plus the lives of many future prisoners or hostages. The brutality of the Afghan fighters is tremendously fuelled by what they percieve as "humiliation by the infidels". Such desecrations are a stab in the back of the assumed moral superiority of the West. This cannot be what the fathers and grandfathers of these soldiers fought for when they liberated Europe and the Far East from the fangs of German/Italian Fascism and Japanese despotism.
                      Google ergo sum

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Hopefully this isn't something that happens all the time and the soldiers will be discharged or put in jail and that'll be the end of it. I did read something last night that contradicted what I had been told and it could be that they weren't trained well enough in regards of how to conduct themselves. However, they certainly knew what they were doing would get them in trouble because they looked to see if anyone was watching first. You'd think they would have some common sense here, maybe they do play too many games.

                        http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...037860096.html

                        What they did is a war crime, against the Geneva Convention and our own laws, and they should be court martialed, but the Taliban saying as much doesn't really amplify the issue for me. Just refusing to wear a uniform during combat and dressing like a civilian is an internaitonal war crime and makes you automatically responsible for the deaths of any civilans around, and that is pretty much the Taliban modus operandi.

                        I guess my point is, if one side is wrong, the other side is not automatically right, and the tendency of my fellow progressives in America is to make everything into a 'innocent victims of evil America' narrative and IMO it usually has little to do with reality. I try to be really careful not to make that mistake in my thinking, because it's just the same as what conservatives do, which is to say 'America is an innocent victim of the rest of the world' which is just as simple and unrealistic.

                        So it's not like the Taliban are squeaky clean. I personally don't think much of them, their conduct or their cause. Nevertheless the point of the Geneva Convention laws is that you follow them no matter who you are fighting.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by opaloka View Post
                          So it's not like the Taliban are squeaky clean. I personally don't think much of them, their conduct or their cause. Nevertheless the point of the Geneva Convention laws is that you follow them no matter who you are fighting.
                          Exactly, it is all about not surrendering a moral position that it took Mankind tens of thousands of years to finally agree upon to instinct again. Only this entitles us to call ourselves civilised.
                          Google ergo sum

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