London/English Riots

[David Mosley]

Pietro, are you saying that two wrongs make a right? That because Dave and Boris may have had a rowdy dinner or five that that somehow gives a free pass to all the thugs burning down 150 year-old stores and basically trashing their communities? I suppose if all the thugs, hooligans, thieves and vandals offered to pay for the damage they've been causing - in cash no less - then you might be able to make the parallel you appear to be making but if I'm honest it seems like more of a cheap shot rather than something that's going to prove to be any sort of solution to the problem(s).

[David Mosley]

From the sound of it you will likely take the path of the USA and give your cops more and more guns.

It may, sadly come to that - and maybe we'll reintroduce the death penalty to show the yobs they can't just do what they want and go back to a 18th Century justice system - but I really don't think there's any desire either from the police or the politicians to go down that path. Policing by Consent is still the mantra coming out of the Home Office and long may it continue to do so.

[Rothgo]

Theft at the bottom. Theft at the top.
A minority at both ends making life that bit worse for the rest of us.

[KevJo]

Pietro, are you saying that two wrongs make a right? That because Dave and Boris may have had a rowdy dinner or five that that somehow gives a free pass to all the thugs burning down 150 year-old stores and basically trashing their communities? I suppose if all the thugs, hooligans, thieves and vandals offered to pay for the damage they've been causing - in cash no less - then you might be able to make the parallel you appear to be making but if I'm honest it seems like more of a cheap shot rather than something that's going to prove to be any sort of solution to the problem(s).

I don't think it is a question of two wrongs making a right. I think it's simpler than that.

It is wrong to loot and burn shops. It is wrong to trash a restaurant - whether or not you can pay for it in cash is neither here nor there. It is wrong to sell mortgages to people who can't afford to pay them. It is wrong (not to say incredibly dangerous) to allow the global economy to become a giant ponzi scheme based on credit.

Everyone's actions affect everyone else, and we end up with a society which is shaped by how much we all contribute towards it. Given modern media, it's very easy nowadays for people to see how other people behave, and what consequences that behaviour has. The looters will see how many of them get punished, or even caught. That will determine how likely they are to do it again. They are also looking at how many of the bankers got prosecuted for their role in the last financial crash. I don't think they've got any interest in politics, or political agenda or motive, but that doesn't mean that that sort of news completely passes them by. The poor, for some reason, have always been fascinated by how the rich behave, and tend to seek to imitate them. (The only exception being the late sixties, when it was actually cooler to be working class).

Similarly, your average financial whizz-kid will be watching the news, keen to see how many rioters get prosecuted/imprisoned, and will also notice how many of his colleagues got prosecuted for their role in the last financial crash. That will determine how likely they are to do it again.

The looters may not have any political motivation, or even be politically aware. That doesn't mean that they are not shaped by their peers, their family and the society they live in.

And I am not trying to condone the looters behaviour. I think that if the police had been able to mobilise larger numbers and waded in a bit sooner, possibly cracking a few heads in the process, it might not have escalated as much as it has and a few more flat screen TV's might still be in the shops.

In the same way, if they had turned up to the restaurant earlier and arrested the members of the Bullingdon club a bit sooner, the restaurant wouldn't have gotten trashed.

In the same way, if the people who brought the global economy to point of collapse had been prosecuted, our society would be in a little bit less danger of collapsing than it currently is.

In all cases, a message is sent to all other members of society, about what is and is not acceptable behaviour.

[David Mosley]

Pietro, are you saying that two wrongs make a right? That because Dave and Boris may have had a rowdy dinner or five that that somehow gives a free pass to all the thugs burning down 150 year-old stores and basically trashing their communities? I suppose if all the thugs, hooligans, thieves and vandals offered to pay for the damage they've been causing - in cash no less - then you might be able to make the parallel you appear to be making but if I'm honest it seems like more of a cheap shot rather than something that's going to prove to be any sort of solution to the problem(s).

I don't think it is a question of two wrongs making a right. I think it's simpler than that.

It is wrong to loot and burn shops. It is wrong to trash a restaurant - whether or not you can pay for it in cash is neither here nor there. It is wrong to sell mortgages to people who can't afford to pay them. It is wrong (not to say incredibly dangerous) to allow the global economy to become a giant ponzi scheme based on credit.

Everyone's actions affect everyone else, and we end up with a society which is shaped by how much we all contribute towards it. Given modern media, it's very easy nowadays for people to see how other people behave, and what consequences that behaviour has. The looters will see how many of them get punished, or even caught. That will determine how likely they are to do it again. They are also looking at how many of the bankers got prosecuted for their role in the last financial crash. I don't think they've got any interest in politics, or political agenda or motive, but that doesn't mean that that sort of news completely passes them by. The poor, for some reason, have always been fascinated by how the rich behave, and tend to seek to imitate them. (The only exception being the late sixties, when it was actually cooler to be working class).

Similarly, your average financial whizz-kid will be watching the news, keen to see how many rioters get prosecuted/imprisoned, and will also notice how many of his colleagues got prosecuted for their role in the last financial crash. That will determine how likely they are to do it again.

The looters may not have any political motivation, or even be politically aware. That doesn't mean that they are not shaped by their peers, their family and the society they live in.

And I am not trying to condone the looters behaviour. I think that if the police had been able to mobilise larger numbers and waded in a bit sooner, possibly cracking a few heads in the process, it might not have escalated as much as it has and a few more flat screen TV's might still be in the shops.

In the same way, if they had turned up to the restaurant earlier and arrested the members of the Bullingdon club a bit sooner, the restaurant wouldn't have gotten trashed.

In the same way, if the people who brought the global economy to point of collapse had been prosecuted, our society would be in a little bit less danger of collapsing than it currently is.

In all cases, a message is sent to all other members of society, about what is and is not acceptable behaviour.

Okay, that's the analysis (Society is Fucked). Now, what's the solution?

[Kevin McCabe]

I'm beginning to see parallels with L.A. after the first Rodney King verdict. That was some ugly stuff too, all the more so for being directed at a community that had nothing at all to do with the verdict. I'm still convinced its the tip of the iceberg, at least over here (more a bell-weather, I suppose, since its not happening here yet). In the end, we in the U.S. will see increasing class violence unless we address unemployment. One real question is when does the balance tip? When are there actually more disaffected people than persons with any kind of real stake.

[Dave Hardy]

Here's a quote from the Guardian which might go some way towards explaining why people regard mobs of looters with more alarm than upper-class hooligans with cash and bankers.

Quote:

Reader Lee Stanley has been in touch from Birmingham, with this depressing vignette.I live and work in central Birmingham and walk down the main shopping streets and back every day. It has been sleepless nights of endless sirens and helicopters overhead, and in the daytime it's eerie to see shops boarded up and closing or closed at 4.30pm.
I spoke to the owner of the Total petrol station on Bristol Street in Birmingham, which was looted in the early hours of Tuesday morning and again last night. It is normally open 24 hours and staff were inside the first time it was broken into. They told me they were threatened by the looters, told they would be killed and the shop burnt. The looters kicked the door down to the back area of the shop and got behind the counter to steal cigarettes while the staff hid in the toilet.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/20...fth-night-live


People tend to react to immediate threats, simple as that. I have no sympathy for the bankers & their trillion-dollar bailouts. They've done a lot of long-term damage and people should remember that. But if thugs were in my face threatening my life and my crappy little stock of possessions with immediate destruction, I'd be scared as hell and raging angry and demanding help instantly.

[Reinart der Fuchs]

Interview with Darcus Howe

Has anyone seen this interview:

http://www.giantrobot.com/news/darcu...-on-the-riots/

Sky are being commended for the on-the-ground reporting (cellphone armed citizens), while the BBC are starting to look rather clumsy.

[thingfish]

A wise man is old Darcus.
I loved the expression on the newsreaders face at the end!
The BBC reporting of the whole conflict has been shockingly one-sided.
Did anyone see newsnight last night?
What a patronising git that Gavin Esler is.
I cant believe they let Kelvin McKenzie come out with the bile that he did.
Shame on them!
We all know how this is going to end,the 'tax payers' approved thugs will be sent out to break heads and the whole problem will be swept under the carpet until the next time.
You cant sweep all these 'insurrectionists' under the carpet and then not expect them,their kids,or their kids kids to do exactly the same at some point unless the whole set up is looked at properly and not just tinkered about with the way this and past governments have.
God,i wish Joe Strummer was still around,at least some great songs would come out of the whole sorry thing.

[KevJo]

Okay, that's the analysis (Society is Fucked). Now, what's the solution?

No, society isn't fucked. It's just very complicated, messy and unfair. Always has been. There have been riots in cities since cities were invented. Ancient Romans always seemed to be rioting about something or other.

Main way I can think of, to try and make society a bit fairer, is to confront people with the consequences of their actions. Make it clear to everyone that what they do has an effect on everyone else.

Looters - After the looting, force them to give back what they have stolen, by raiding their homes if necessary, force them to tidy up the mess they have created, bring them face to face with their victims and force them to listen while they are told what effect their actions have had. One to one - not in the safety of the mob, where everyone feels brave. The primary school teaching assistant didn't seem quite so brave when he was leaving court. Any of them with jobs, make sure the money to pay for damages comes out of their pay packets and goes to their victims, leaving them with £50 a week. Until such time as their debts are paid off. I was going to say throw them out of their jobs, but that wouldn't do any good - they wouldn't be able to repay anything.

Bullingdon Club - If they do criminal damage, throw them out of University, make sure they've got a criminal record and ensure that they never get jobs like Prime Minister or London Mayor. AND make them pay for it.

Financial Innovators - Off the top of my head - take away their pension plans, their houses, their health care - so that they can appreciate what effect their 'innovating' has had on most of the rest of society - oh, and make sure they don't get given bonuses amounting to more money than most of us will ever earn in our lives. And for the ones who actually broke the law, and there are more than a few, put them in jail. None of them have been yet, as far as I can see. As well as wanting them to face up to what they've done, there is the matter of survival - I'm worried that they will do it again (in fact, ARE doing it again). The day will come when there is no money left to bail them out. And that's when the looting will really start.

But in general, like I said, confront people with the consequences of their actions. Won't always work, but it's worth a try.

[Lucid Sirius]

Where did all this begin? Reminds me of Johnny's reply to a similar question in the movie Airplane:

"Well, first the earth cooled, then the dinosaurs came...."

[Wanderlust]

This is ghastly stuff, and I chose not to make many statements on this, but I did find this bit a friend posted rather appropriate for these forums:

http://www.slate.com/id/2301296/

I know it's not much of an article compared to what you folk have wrote, but I have to think . . . is anyone minding the store?

[Pietro_Mercurios]

Pietro, are you saying that two wrongs make a right? That because Dave and Boris may have had a rowdy dinner or five that that somehow gives a free pass to all the thugs burning down 150 year-old stores and basically trashing their communities? I suppose if all the thugs, hooligans, thieves and vandals offered to pay for the damage they've been causing - in cash no less - then you might be able to make the parallel you appear to be making but if I'm honest it seems like more of a cheap shot rather than something that's going to prove to be any sort of solution to the problem(s).

Do you not see the parallels?

Trashing somebody's pub, or restaurant, then throwing money at the owner in some sort of recompense isn't ameliorated by being an ostentatious display of the power of wealth and privilege. I see no significant difference between the acts of one group over the other. Is it a cheap shot? These former members of that exclusive and intimidating little club for bullies now run the country and have been pontificating on the highly similar crimes of others.

Being able to afford to pay for one's crimes and misdemeanour's does not really lessen the crime, as News of the World and News international have recently discovered. A solution? First we have to identify just what is really wrong with our society, top and bottom.

“That if gold rust, what shall iron do?
For if a priest be foul, in whom we trust,
No wonder is a lewd man to rust.”

As Geoffrey Chaucer once put it.

--- --- --- --- ---

And passing this one on. An open letter to David Cameron's parents:

http://nathanieltapley.com/2011/08/1...erons-parents/

[David Mosley]

First we have to identify just what is really wrong with our society, top and bottom.

We know what's wrong with society. People are cunts.* The problem is no-one wants to face up to the solution because it's too unpalatable to modern sensibilities. And that's why Society is fucked imo.

*Because the correct noun, 'sinners', is even more offensive these days.

[Rothgo]

Some people are David. The real rub is that for all our efforts, some are and always will be. There are of course the grand swath of non-cunts that make up society proper, but because they don't scream, smash and wreck things, they are typically ignored.

I appreciate that coming from doom and gloom me, this is a bit rich; but them I think guilt stops us really acting on the scum at the bottom, while powerlessness stops us acting on the scum at the top. Different causes, so not really the hypocrisy it might initially appear to be.