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Hanging in Japan / Execution

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  • L'Etranger
    replied
    I see that this thread that I started has reached a stage that doesn't promise any reconcilability.
    It has exhausted its worth as a topic for debate, there's no development, all's been said, and in some cases definitely even too much has been said. I left earlier after being taken totally aback by certain statements and now I have come back to lock this, because if GOD is called upon for support then things quickly turn very nasty and do more damage than any gain that could come out of such a discussion.
    Last edited by L'Etranger; 10-01-2009, 12:41 PM.

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  • Talisant
    replied
    Originally posted by EVIL INC View Post
    Talisant, the only ones "tarred" are the ones with the guilty consciences. Those who wish to freely allow murder and crime with no repercussions or detterrants might not ALL wish to tear down society. In those sorts of environments where there are no laws there will still be a society. Regardless of what the environment, there will always be a "society". The difference is do you want one where the citizens can be safe?
    As for war, some may feel that it is murder. This is especially so if the person feels they should not be in the war to begin with, but that is a different story altogether. Then again, there is the matter of self defence. If you feel it is not ok to kill someone who is trying to kill you, be my guest. I will follow the instinct that God put into me and defend myself.
    In your words to V.A., I see that you believe that NO killing is EVER ok. I take it that you think that God him/herself is wrong? I have never read the bible from cover to cover but I have read enough to see that he/she has condoned many deaths and "personally" killed many times. Not that I am say, we are Gods equal of course but many of the deaths condoned in the bible were done by man/woman.
    Of course, I will also not consider myself to be God and pass judgements on the right or wrongness of other humans or governments (I believe that only God has the right to officially declare who is going to heaven/hell) as that too would be blasphemy in my eyes.
    But E I, you in fact did "tar" whoever you were referring to as "anarchists" and others in your earlier post, and were in deed passing judgement on "their" philosophy and actions as portrayed by you. My reply merely extended the logic of your statement to what appears to me to be an accurate perimeter of inclusion.

    I have read the Bible through a few times. Different parts of it may speak louder to one at different times, but picking this or that portion of it to vadlidate one's own willful preference and agenda would appear to me to be , in religious terms, hubristic blasphemy.

    If God gives one his conscience, and for example, one's conscience tells him that no killing is ok, and one seriously studies what his conscience tells him, puts his best mind and heart on it, and one sees the wisdom of his conscience after lengthy consideration and study, not merely the quick passion of emotion, or the easy path of platitudes, then how is this saying God is wrong?

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  • Count_Brass
    replied
    Originally posted by Papi View Post
    Ah, the Monty Python !...
    And now, something for...
    ... different.
    Quelle bonne idée!

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  • Papi
    replied
    Ah, the Monty Python !...
    And now, something for...

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  • EVIL INC
    replied
    Originally posted by David Mosley View Post
    "Reasoned Debate" isn't really about 'standing your ground' in the face of all contrary argument; it's about taking the opportunity of other people's POV to re-examine your own ideas and see whether the other side might actually have some valid points worth considering. Blind repetition of the same argument over and over again doesn't actually do anything to advance discussion, as this video ably demonstrates:
    Having slept on the matter last night, I've come to the conclusion that I think I've said all I want to say on the issue, my views are fairly obvious, there's a patent lack of will on the part of some to consider things from an alternative perspective and therefore any further discourse is just going to be a waste of time and effort on my part.
    Exactly. Finally, someone gets the point. That is exactly what I have been doing. Seeing the issue from all points of view and re-evaluating my own. True, I am "standing my ground" in that AFTER having evaluated and re-evaluated my view, I have not seen anything sufficient to make me change my mind. If I had, I would have done so. I am truly standing my ground in that I feel I should have a right to my own opinion and to voice it despite some here doing thier best to force me to accept thier orders to believe and think what they tell me too. THAT is at the core of this issue. That we should have the right to believe and think what we want to without having some outside agency (other posters) forcing us to fall under the sway of thier attempted mind control.
    As you have said, there is a patent lack of will on some to consider things from an alternative point of view and a patent lack of willingness to allow others to have thier own point of view at all. It may be a waste of time for me to try to continue asking for the right to have my own opinion, but I am not ready to give that up just yet.

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  • David Mosley
    replied
    "Reasoned Debate" isn't really about 'standing your ground' in the face of all contrary argument; it's about taking the opportunity of other people's POV to re-examine your own ideas and see whether the other side might actually have some valid points worth considering. Blind repetition of the same argument over and over again doesn't actually do anything to advance discussion, as this video ably demonstrates:



    Having slept on the matter last night, I've come to the conclusion that I think I've said all I want to say on the issue, my views are fairly obvious, there's a patent lack of will on the part of some to consider things from an alternative perspective and therefore any further discourse is just going to be a waste of time and effort on my part.



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  • EVIL INC
    replied
    Actually nat, I am calling YOUR bluff. Here is all the quote you need. Read through it. http://www.multiverse.org/fora/showt...409#post179409
    Count, I have seen many here who implied that. Of course, just as the "opposition have declared me and all U.S. citizens bloodthirsty hounds whose only wish to kill off all humanity, I figured that since in thier eyes, there is no "middle ground" or grey area, I thought it apt to use thier brush in order to show them how silly they appear. In other words, I exagerated in the same manner they did in order to show them how silly using blanket statements in pure black and white can be.
    Also, in regards to using "Him/Her, I was not the one to bring that into it. Others did that feat by making the statements of how "wrong" it is to kill under any circumstances and how doing so under any circumstances is deplorable ect (even if it is a killer with a gun to your child's head with the finger in the proccess of pulling the trigger and the only way to stop him is to kill him). I put my opinions forth as opinions and personal feelings. They are putting thiers forth as facts under God. I was just demonstrating how I thought that was innaccurate and blasphemy.
    Last edited by EVIL INC; 10-01-2009, 06:12 AM.

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  • Count_Brass
    replied
    Originally posted by EVIL INC View Post
    Those who wish to freely allow murder and crime with no repercussions or detterrants might not ALL wish to tear down society.
    Seen such people anywhere around?
    Originally posted by EVIL INC View Post
    ... (shortened by Count_Brass)
    ... I take it that you think that God him/herself is wrong? I have never read the bible from cover to cover but I have read enough to see that he/she has condoned many deaths and "personally" killed many times. Not that I am say, we are Gods equal of course but many of the deaths condoned in the bible were done by man/woman.
    Of course, I will also not consider myself to be God and pass judgements on the right or wrongness of other humans or governments (I believe that only God has the right to officially declare who is going to heaven/hell) as that too would be blasphemy in my eyes.
    What a quagmire!
    If you think executions are the solution then say so, but please don't make HIM or HER an accomplice in this somewhat rickety logic.
    Last edited by Count_Brass; 10-01-2009, 06:01 AM. Reason: exchanged a good wird for a better one

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  • Nathaniel
    replied
    Originally posted by EVIL INC View Post
    ... They have also passed judgement on the U.S. and declared us evil as a society on a personal level (ALL members of the society are murderers because we kill people who kill people)...
    Show me the post where someone said this. Pretty straight forward request.
    If you are unable to show me the post where someone said this, then you should not cry victim. To use poker terminology, I am calling your bluff. This is not rude, nor violating the "politeness" policy, You are claiming that this has been said, and I am asking you to justify that claim, all it requires is for you to find the post you are refering to and hit the "quote" button. If it is as widespread as you say it will be easier and quicker than your last response was.

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  • EVIL INC
    replied
    Originally posted by Nathaniel View Post
    Originally posted by EVIL INC View Post
    Natey, read the thread.
    LOL, I will turn down the heat. That way, it wont bother you guys as much. My apologies for turning it up. That smiley looks more like someone really scared running from something rather then dancing.
    Please do not call me "Natey" Nat is fine. I can live with "Dude" but not Natey.
    I have skimmed the thread, cant see the post you refer to, if you could find it and use the"qoute" button it might make it easier for me to find.
    The words and implications are literally dripping from almost every post in the thread. If your could not find them, my quoting them will do yuou no good.
    Kevin, you have a point although I would not neccessarily rule out the England prisons as well. You have corrupt gaurds who treat thier wards as though they need to be punished rather then rehabilitated the world over. As a matter of fact, that extends into other fields as well. I was, until recently laid off, a supervisory guidance counselor at a Job Corps campus. Most of the staff treated the kids as though they were criminals and looked down upon them. The reason I was so successfull is because I reached the kids through dignity and respect. By treating them as human beings who were my equal. By working WITH the students in this way rather then AGAINSt them, I was able to get much better results then anyone else who had worked there for years. Not ALL personell treat the prisoners poorly.
    Talisant, the only ones "tarred" are the ones with the guilty consciences. Those who wish to freely allow murder and crime with no repercussions or detterrants might not ALL wish to tear down society. In those sorts of environments where there are no laws there will still be a society. Regardless of what the environment, there will always be a "society". The difference is do you want one where the citizens can be safe?
    As for war, some may feel that it is murder. This is especially so if the person feels they should not be in the war to begin with, but that is a different story altogether. Then again, there is the matter of self defence. If you feel it is not ok to kill someone who is trying to kill you, be my guest. I will follow the instinct that God put into me and defend myself.
    In your words to V.A., I see that you believe that NO killing is EVER ok. I take it that you think that God him/herself is wrong? I have never read the bible from cover to cover but I have read enough to see that he/she has condoned many deaths and "personally" killed many times. Not that I am say, we are Gods equal of course but many of the deaths condoned in the bible were done by man/woman.
    Of course, I will also not consider myself to be God and pass judgements on the right or wrongness of other humans or governments (I believe that only God has the right to officially declare who is going to heaven/hell) as that too would be blasphemy in my eyes.

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  • Talisant
    replied
    Originally posted by EVIL INC View Post
    The ones who think it is ok to murder at will with no repercussions show a tendancy towards that direction though.
    I can agree with your statement, but would have to extended your brush stroke to equally tar any and all individuals, groups, or governments holding such ideas and demonstrating such tendencies - as appearing to wish to tear down civil society through attacking one of it's core foundations, though I reject the limited religio-legalistic sense of murder which you cite in your longer post, and would have to include executions and killing during war as murder's equal.

    Originally posted by Talisant View Post
    Originally posted by Vazkar Asquinol View Post
    ...I ask those of you that are against capital punishment what your views on abortion are?...
    Not sure the implied analogy stands up, capital punishment is forced/ enforced by the State, abortion, in the US, is a personal choice, within a certain frame of law...
    Originally posted by Vazkar Asquinol
    Sure it does, unless you think that the right to "murder" as a personal choice is "ok" as opposed to being ordered by the State. Why should a felonious murderer be any different? He "chose" to murder someone. Same thing with many abortion cases. What about that woman that had 15 abortions in 16 years? Is that not murder? Is is most certainly irresponsible and heinous...Execution is not "murder" btw...
    Your analogy falls short in my view in that the state is not a person and has no conscience, only laws, and so no real ability to choose.

    No one has a "right" to murder. Murder as killing by active or passive choice, it is always a personal choice and whether state ordered, allowed, or not, is always reprehensible, heinous and irresponsible, and, in my opinion, can never be validated through legal sophistries. Again, I also include executions and military killing as murder's equal. One either condones killing or one does not, one either kills or one does not, it's always a personal choice.

    I think and believe that no killing is 'ok'.

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  • Nathaniel
    replied
    Originally posted by EVIL INC View Post
    Natey, read the thread.
    LOL, I will turn down the heat. That way, it wont bother you guys as much. My apologies for turning it up. That smiley looks more like someone really scared running from something rather then dancing.
    Please do not call me "Natey" Nat is fine. I can live with "Dude" but not Natey.
    I have skimmed the thread, cant see the post you refer to, if you could find it and use the"qoute" button it might make it easier for me to find.

    Leave a comment:


  • Kevin McCabe
    replied
    Originally posted by David Mosely
    That analysis does seem to indicate a systemic failure of the US prison system to reform or rehabilitate criminals. I understand that in the US prison are run at a state level rather than a federal one, yes?, so there's not necessarily a uniform approach to prison management as might be the case in the UK.
    David, I think you can safely assume the basic difference between Her Majesty's Prisons and the U.S. Federal system, along with the majority of the states, is the express abandonment, sometimes by popular initiative, of the rehabilitative theory in favor of deterrence and retribution.

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  • Groakes
    replied
    I haven't posted on this thread yet. Those who have read my previous posts on this perreniel question already know what I am going to say so at the risk of repeating myself....

    I don't believe that the Death Penalty works as a deterrent. I don't believe that people "deserve death" for crimes they have committed. I don't believe that death should be a penalty for anything.

    However, I do believe that there are cases where the "guilt" of the perpetrator is beyond any doubt and where the crime committed is so heinous, that the perpetrator has crossed a line by such a degree that they are, for all intents and purposes unable to be accepted in human society. Whether it is due to a genetic defect or due to abuse as a child, this person has crossed into a place from where there is no coming back. As such, I would apply the analogy of a rabid dog. Is it the dog's fault that it has rabies? No. But to protect the community and to end the suffering of the animal you shoot rabid dogs.

    It's not a position that I am comfortable or happy with. But I sadly think that there are, in some extreme circumstances, no other option. My greatest qualm is with regards who presses the button, pulls the trigger etc.

    That said, I don't believe that the case in question would necessarily fit my criteria, though I don't know the details of the case.
    Last edited by Groakes; 09-30-2009, 06:45 PM. Reason: relating to original question

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  • EVIL INC
    replied
    Thats why I make sure of my facts before I post. The thing about statistics is that they dont lie. They can be manipulated and selectively used to say anything you like. That is why I dont place much stock when one set is used to "prove a point" when you can find another set that will say the exact opposite. I agree with the respectfull posting. I learned years ago before I ever graduated high school to treat everyone with dignity and respect. After learning that then, I have always done so since.
    I feel that I should stand up for what I believe in. That is apparantly not welcome here because it leads to personal attacks. I have dealt with them before, I will let them brush off of me here too.

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