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Hanging in Japan / Execution

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  • #31
    Yes, overpopulation is a problem, but condoms are a lot cheaper and more humane than lethal injections.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by opaloka View Post
      Wonderful sentiments being expressed here. But any judicial syatem makes mistakes. People are incarcerated wrongly all the time because of faulty evidence, stupid cops, arrogant judges, small minded juries, and the mindless roar of the public's lust for revenge. It' one thing to ruin a man's life by mistake, but when you start talking about killing them off, bear in mind

      YOU could be next.
      What about folks like Timothy Mcveigh? That is one fellow that deserved what he got.
      Jeffrey Dahmer also comes to mind... even though he was killed by a fellow inmate, I would not have felt bad if he had gotten executed.
      In my opinion, no one should be executed if there is any chance that the verdict was wrong, but if the evidence is concrete and there is no room for error, then move forward. I could see mistakes happening alot more back in the day, but these days, with DNA, etc... not so much.
      Last edited by Vazkar Asquinol; 09-28-2009, 06:26 AM.
      "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." -Robert A. Heinlein

      "If I accept you as you are, I will make you worse; however, if I treat you as though you are what you are capable of becoming, I will help you become that." -Johann Wolfgang Goethe

      "Man once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without rudder, is the sport of every wind." -Thomas Jefferson

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      • #33
        Well, sure you can name a dozen nasty creeps who we might feel they deserve it, but it doesn't make your position any "righter". I could name you a dozen others who we might feel sorry they didn't get the punishment, including war criminals like Lt. Calley & Co., because investigators seemed not convincing enough and courts decided otherwise.
        Google ergo sum

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Vazkar Asquinol View Post
          What about folks like Timothy Mcveigh? That is one fellow that deserved what he got.
          One wonders what the execution of McVeigh actually achieved for the victims of his crime though? As Jim Sawyer, whose mother was murdered by McVeigh' bomb attack, said after his execution, "Without saying a word, he got the final word". How much satisfaction did the relatives of those McVeigh murder derive from his death? Some (many? most?) might have felt 'justice' had been served but McVeigh's death didn't bring back their loved ones. It didn't alter the fact of what he had done. It's often said by 'survivors' of those killed by others that if the perpetrator gets the death sentence they get a life sentence because they have to live with the horror, tragedy and emptiness of their loss. It's not unreasonable to say that for some people the death sentence is too lenient.
          _"For an eternity Allard was alone in an icy limbo where all the colours were bright and sharp and comfortless.
          _For another eternity Allard swam through seas without end, all green and cool and deep, where distorted creatures drifted, sometimes attacking him.
          _And then, at last, he had reached the real world – the world he had created, where he was God and could create or destroy whatever he wished.
          _He was supremely powerful. He told planets to destroy themselves, and they did. He created suns. Beautiful women flocked to be his. Of all men, he was the mightiest. Of all gods, he was the greatest."

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          • #35
            Funny you should mention DNA, I think this may be relevant...

            http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/18/science/18dna.html

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            • #36
              Yes, mistakes are made. In the end, if someone is wrongly executed, stuff happens. This also goes if I am wrongly executed too. It is still one less person to squander the Earth's resources. Of course, I am also all for assisted suicides and the recycling of what is left of the bodies after what can be used is removed (organs and such for transplants. I dont mean recycling in the form of food, but I mean recycling in the form of fertalizer and such rather then wasting groundspace sealed up in metal doffins or burned to ashes. Those are altogether different discussions though.
              True, also condoms are far cheaper and far more people should use them. Stopping at one means of helping is not as good as exploring more then one means of finding a solution.
              The execution of a murderer is not to give revenge or to make anyone feel better. It is to prevent them from doing so again in as humane a fashion without putting other members of society at risk or under undue expenses. So someone who says dalmer got the last word is wrong. Society got the last word in that it made sure he could no longer kill.
              Of course, like many other issues, no one "side" will convince the other of anything.

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              • #37
                You are spot on that overpopulation is a major issue. But unless you plan to go down the Judge Death route and criminalize then execute a good half of the population or more, execution as a judicial punishment can't be justified using that ideology, as it won't have an observable effect.

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                • #38
                  True, it will not make that much of a difference. But using that as one of the reasons to demonstrate why capital punishment to help protect the population is not the most convincing argument. It is just a supporting bit of information. The most important and convincing argument is the protection of the society and the human race as a whole.

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                  • #39
                    "High Cost of Death Row"

                    There is an interesting editorial in today's New York Times about the high cost of death row.

                    From the editorial on the state where I live:

                    "Perhaps the most extreme example is California, whose death row costs taxpayers $114 million a year beyond the cost of imprisoning convicts for life. The state has executed 13 people since 1976 for a total of about $250 million per execution. This is a state whose prisons are filled to bursting (unconstitutionally so, the courts say) and whose government has imposed doomsday-level cuts to social services, health care, schools and parks."


                    Yes, it costs $250,000,000 per execution. That is insane. Even if you believe justice is served by offing the bad guys (or gals) then this is a powerful economic argument against death rows.


                    --Lucius

                    "When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands explained."
                    - Mark Twain, notebook entry, 1898.

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                    • #40
                      Please note that those high costs are not in the executions but in the high cost or legal issues with people trying to stop it. Wee people to allow the government to just perform the executions, the cost would be a fraction of that.
                      This means that those who use the "high cost of execution" argument against capital punishment are the ones making those costs high in the fitrst place.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by EVIL INC View Post
                        Please note that those high costs are not in the executions but in the high cost or legal issues with people trying to stop it. Wee people to allow the government to just perform the executions, the cost would be a fraction of that.
                        "Just perform the executions"? How would that work? When the judge or jury pronounces the verdict of "guilty" just take the convict outside and shoot them?

                        This means that those who use the "high cost of execution" argument against capital punishment are the ones making those costs high in the fitrst place.
                        Perhaps, but there are a lot of pro-capital punishment folks that believe in an exhaustive (and necessarily expensive) process to insure the guilty are in fact guilty before they are executed.

                        "When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands explained."
                        - Mark Twain, notebook entry, 1898.

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                        • #42
                          I wouldnt say just take them out and shoot them. Make sure to have a humane method prepared. Give them a week or so to "wrap up" thier affairs and the do it.
                          As it is, we do try to make sure the guilty are actually guilty. Where the huge costs come in is the anti-capital punishment people fighting against the system trying to put the murderers back onto the street. Or if not on the street, into the prisons where they can likely get parole for good behavior after a few years and THEN go back on the street, or into the prisons to kill off other "criminals" who committed lesser crimes and actually have a chance of once more becoming REAL productive citizens. Also note, that while the high cost of execution is only due to the anti-capital punishment people trying to stop it, the sometimes slightly lower cost of incarceration that is given by the anti-capital punishment do not include the costs of putting them into the prisons, the costs of thier appeals and so forth. Add those in and the balence is tipped back to make the TOTAL cost of incarceration rather then execution far higher.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by EVIL INC View Post
                            I wouldnt say just take them out and shoot them. Make sure to have a humane method prepared. Give them a week or so to "wrap up" thier affairs and the do it....
                            Then look no further than the former Soviet Union, where this was the general method used for those few with any sort of connection or "juice" within the ruling elites before they were executed. (The regular folks were, though, usually just summarily shot or hanged.) One can also use the case of revolutionary France for such quick executions. They didn't waste much time, even with allowances for getting one's affairs in order, and apparently the guillotine is much swifter than hanging or shooting.

                            As for the rest of the reply, such as notion that those opposed to capital punishment are trying "put the murderers back onto the street," I've no response to it as it seems that any line between personal fantasy and reality in such notions is missing.

                            LS

                            "When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands explained."
                            - Mark Twain, notebook entry, 1898.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Ahh. I had not realized that each and every person executed in the former soviet union were convicted murders. You might have something against "the russions" or "the frenchies" but I have a more open minded view towards our fellow human beings. We of course only "execute" convicted murderers. Anyway, last I heard we werent taking people out and shooting them for double parking.
                              You must have stopped reading my post halfway through or you would not have made the snide (and utterly false as well as out of context) reply to the statement. Unless of course you actually believe that people do not ever get parole for good behavior or anything like that. Unless of course, you also believe that crime does not occurr in prisons (from thievery up to and including murder). In which case, you would just simply be wrong.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Lucid Sirius View Post
                                Originally posted by EVIL INC View Post
                                Please note that those high costs are not in the executions but in the high cost or legal issues with people trying to stop it. Wee people to allow the government to just perform the executions, the cost would be a fraction of that.
                                "Just perform the executions"? How would that work? When the judge or jury pronounces the verdict of "guilty" just take the convict outside and shoot them?
                                Why bother with trials in the first place? That's just additional expense to the hard-working taxpayer, after all. I mean, we've already established these people 'deserve' it, haven't we?

                                Of course, all this talk of cost just obscures the paradox I mentioned earlier; namely, that the State kills people for killing other people because killing people is, er, wrong.
                                _"For an eternity Allard was alone in an icy limbo where all the colours were bright and sharp and comfortless.
                                _For another eternity Allard swam through seas without end, all green and cool and deep, where distorted creatures drifted, sometimes attacking him.
                                _And then, at last, he had reached the real world – the world he had created, where he was God and could create or destroy whatever he wished.
                                _He was supremely powerful. He told planets to destroy themselves, and they did. He created suns. Beautiful women flocked to be his. Of all men, he was the mightiest. Of all gods, he was the greatest."

                                Comment

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