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Hanging in Japan / Execution

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Pebble View Post
    Does capital punishment work?
    I've never seen capital punishment as a deterrent to crime, and I don't believe it should ever be viewed as such because that (to me) takes away the entire point of it, and opens the way for abuse by governments who use it.

    I see it as a 'punishment fits the crime' determination, a balancing of the scales of justice. When it is viewed as a crime deterrent, then too many WILL abuse the power of it, using it against anyone they want to suppress (executing people for minor offenses, political or religious ideologies, etc). But I have no objections to capital punishment being used to execute ruthless murderers. Take the sexual predator who violently rapes and murders a 10-year old, or the guy who murders the old shop owner over ten lousy bucks in the cash register, or guns down the cop who just pulled him over for a traffic offense. Anyone who so ruthlessly takes a life shouldn't then, in turn, plead for their own. I don't think it's a primative punishment, but a just one, and it should send a message - not to deter crime (because it won't), but to show that society will not tolerate the wanton murder of innocents, and that anyone willing to take a life should be equally willing to forfeit his own. Murder should NEVER be taken lightly, and all to often today it is!

    Murder. Having your life stolen from you - and from your loved ones - by someone who is only thinking of themselves. It shouldn't be about the killers, but about their victims. And people really do need to think of the victims in this case - their very right to life that was violently stripped from them - instead of defending the murderer. The murderer is getting what he deserved, his victim - most likely - did not. I have to say that this twisted morality (defending the murderer at the expense of the victim) makes me sick. Sorry to all who hate capital punishment, but that's how I feel.

    I mean, imagine your loved one was brutally murdered. Imagine that the authorities know - beyond a shadow of a doubt - who did it. Imagine a long, gutting trial where you had to sit and listen - with little outside moral support - to how your loved one was brutally raped, tortured and murdered. Imagine a jury handing down a death sentence, and - though you can't get your loved one back - at least you feel there is some justice, an 'eye for an eye', as it were.

    Then imagine hundreds of people suddenly coming out of the woodwork - NOT to support you in your loss, or to remember the victim of a horrible crime - but instead to support the killer!! Imagine how that just victimizes the grieving family all over again - their loved one's life mattered NOT to the world - they were just 'another victim'. But the killer? Well, suddenly the killer is a superstar, being defended by best and the brightest, as it were.

    Yeah. Sorry. Before someone starts crying out for 'justice' for the criminal, maybe they should do a little research into who the victim was first.

    That all said, I think capital punishment should only be used in extreme cases, and in those cases were there is no question as to who the killer is. More often than not they DO have the right man, but in cases were there is any doubt, a life sentence would be the better way to go. But when they know they have the right guy? I say give him as much mercy as he showed his victims.

    Yeah, I am a heartless bitch at times. So be it.


    das
    Last edited by dasNdanger; 09-19-2009, 03:19 AM.

    Comment


    • #17
      One of the mater with death penalty is that you can be for it. To prononce it is something different.

      In France, most of the times popular juries did not sentence people to death, so guilty they were. Only 19 persons were sentenced and executed in France froms 1958 to 1981. If the condemned appealed to the supreme court and if the sentence was broken, only in one case, he was again sentenced to death.

      One of them judged guilty of abusing and murdering a young girl was found no guilty later.

      Last frenchman who did this sort of thing was a man who kidnapped a 7 years boy and murdered him. His guilt was never questioned. He was lucky to be helped by one of the best and intellectually greatest lawyer in France, Robert Badinter and was not sentenced to death.

      Robert Badinter convinced the jury that even if the man was guilty, he did not deserve death penalty.

      Death penalty becoming a lottery, it is bettter it be abolished.

      In 1981, R Badinter became ministre de la Justice and death peanlty was abolished.

      In 1969, a majority of frenchemen was against, in 1981 when it was abolished 63 % of frenchmen weere for. a constant majority of french men is against nowadays.

      Death peanlty abolition is written in the european Convention for the Protection
      of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms which is enforced by the council of Europe, including European communauty but also every european country, Russia and Turkey.

      Comment


      • #18
        Why should the State have the right to kill? Is their judgement infallible? I don't think so. It disturbs me that exponents of 'liberty' in the US are always for the death penalty - giving government the most potent weapon imaginable.

        Comment


        • #19
          http://www.amnestyusa.org/document.p...3111629&lang=e

          http://www.amnestyusa.org/document.p...0910001&lang=e

          Japan does not have trial by jury, guilt or innocence is decided by a professional judge who also decides sentencing. Japan has a conviction rate percentage in the high nineties. Hmm.

          Comment


          • #20
            "Japan’s death penalty effectively scrapped..."

            "Capital punishment has been unofficially scrapped in Japan with the appointment of a left-wing justice minister who is an outspoken opponent of the country’s controversial system of secret executions."

            Full article:

            http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6840248.ece

            "When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands explained."
            - Mark Twain, notebook entry, 1898.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Vazkar Asquinol View Post
              If:
              They deserve to die...
              they die!


              Some folk are not meant to walk this earth.


              'tis a shame but 'tis true.

              There are those among us meant to be examples. This is one of those.

              Kill the killers.
              Let the free people of the world live.
              I agree with this statement. If they are willing to kill, then they should be willing to die.
              `Old heroes never die; they reappear in sequels.` - M. Moorcock.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by dasNdanger View Post
                Originally posted by Pebble View Post
                Does capital punishment work?
                I've never seen capital punishment as a deterrent to crime, and I don't believe it should ever be viewed as such because that (to me) takes away the entire point of it, and opens the way for abuse by governments who use it.
                So it is REVENGE then? While all other punishments for other crimes are deterrent?
                It is prone to be viewed differently depending on the values of your society.

                Originally posted by dasNdanger View Post
                I see it as a 'punishment fits the crime' determination, a balancing of the scales of justice. When it is viewed as a crime deterrent, then too many WILL abuse the power of it, using it against anyone they want to suppress (executing people for minor offenses, political or religious ideologies, etc).
                Could a rape victim expect then that the perpetrator be also raped, or one of his female family members in retaliation? Such treatment was indeed in force in Afrfican societies up to the early twentieth century.

                Originally posted by dasNdanger View Post
                But I have no objections to capital punishment being used to execute ruthless murderers. Take the sexual predator who violently rapes and murders a 10-year old, or the guy who murders the old shop owner over ten lousy bucks in the cash register, or guns down the cop who just pulled him over for a traffic offense. Anyone who so ruthlessly takes a life shouldn't then, in turn, plead for their own. I don't think it's a primative punishment, but a just one, and it should send a message - not to deter crime (because it won't), but to show that society will not tolerate the wanton murder of innocents, and that anyone willing to take a life should be equally willing to forfeit his own. Murder should NEVER be taken lightly, and all to often today it is!
                While I don't think murder is being taken lightly, I fully agree with you on the emotional side of this.
                Yet, I do hesitate to give up my moral position that the chances are to great that people get executed who are innocent for a whole bag of reasons. And, as in the issue of torturing terrorists, I maintain that we oughtn't lower us to the level of those who committed wrong.

                Originally posted by dasNdanger View Post
                Murder. Having your life stolen from you - and from your loved ones - by someone who is only thinking of themselves. It shouldn't be about the killers, but about their victims. And people really do need to think of the victims in this case - their very right to life that was violently stripped from them - instead of defending the murderer. The murderer is getting what he deserved, his victim - most likely - did not. I have to say that this twisted morality (defending the murderer at the expense of the victim) makes me sick. Sorry to all who hate capital punishment, but that's how I feel.

                I mean, imagine your loved one was brutally murdered. Imagine that the authorities know - beyond a shadow of a doubt - who did it. Imagine a long, gutting trial where you had to sit and listen - with little outside moral support - to how your loved one was brutally raped, tortured and murdered. Imagine a jury handing down a death sentence, and - though you can't get your loved one back - at least you feel there is some justice, an 'eye for an eye', as it were.

                Then imagine hundreds of people suddenly coming out of the woodwork - NOT to support you in your loss, or to remember the victim of a horrible crime - but instead to support the killer!! Imagine how that just victimizes the grieving family all over again - their loved one's life mattered NOT to the world - they were just 'another victim'. But the killer? Well, suddenly the killer is a superstar, being defended by best and the brightest, as it were.

                Yeah. Sorry. Before someone starts crying out for 'justice' for the criminal, maybe they should do a little research into who the victim was first.

                That all said, I think capital punishment should only be used in extreme cases, and in those cases were there is no question as to who the killer is. More often than not they DO have the right man, but in cases were there is any doubt, a life sentence would be the better way to go. But when they know they have the right guy? I say give him as much mercy as he showed his victims.
                I did not often think people actually heartlessly supported the killers, by the way, I felt they profoundly rejected the death penalty and the idea that man has the right to execute someone. A shame if that perfectly valid intention is translated into support for the villain.
                Originally posted by dasNdanger View Post
                Yeah, I am a heartless bitch at times. So be it.

                das
                But no, I don't for a minute think you are heartless. As I said I can fully relate to the emotional side, the anger etc. But even if we agree to disagree, we both certainly do not support the way how delinquents are often treated, like being in death row for years without a clue what is going or when it will happen.

                Originally posted by opaloka View Post
                Japan does not have trial by jury, guilt or innocence is decided by a professional judge who also decides sentencing. Japan has a conviction rate percentage in the high nineties. Hmm.
                Very questionable procedure for a questionable decision.
                At least you have a jury of several people in the USA.
                Originally posted by Ulric Skarsol View Post
                Originally posted by Vazkar Asquinol View Post
                If:
                They deserve to die...
                they die!

                Some folk are not meant to walk this earth.

                'tis a shame but 'tis true.

                There are those among us meant to be examples. This is one of those.

                Kill the killers.
                Let the free people of the world live.
                I agree with this statement. If they are willing to kill, then they should be willing to die.
                I am sorry, but I find it very difficult to stomach a statement like "Some folk are not meant to walk this earth." I am not very religious, but if God made us, then he has had a plan for these people too.


                Originally posted by Lucid Sirius View Post
                "Capital punishment has been unofficially scrapped in Japan with the appointment of a left-wing justice minister who is an outspoken opponent of the country’s controversial system of secret executions."

                Full article:

                http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6840248.ece
                Terrific news. Good man then, that left-winger.
                Google ergo sum

                Comment


                • #23
                  The slaughterers of helpless women, children and men should be eradicated from the system completely.
                  If not just for the maintenance fees alone.
                  Call it a cleansing.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Ulric Skarsol View Post
                    I agree with this statement. If they are willing to kill, then they should be willing to die.
                    What do you call someone who kills a killer, even in the name of "justice"?

                    You can never undo a death sentence.

                    Des
                    Spacerockmanifesto on Facebook

                    Hawkwind tabs

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by L'Etranger View Post
                      [
                      Originally posted by Ulric Skarsol View Post
                      Originally posted by Vazkar Asquinol View Post
                      If:
                      They deserve to die...
                      they die!

                      Some folk are not meant to walk this earth.

                      'tis a shame but 'tis true.

                      There are those among us meant to be examples. This is one of those.

                      Kill the killers.
                      Let the free people of the world live.
                      I agree with this statement. If they are willing to kill, then they should be willing to die.
                      I am sorry, but I find it very difficult to stomach a statement like "Some folk are not meant to walk this earth." I am not very religious, but if God made us, then he has had a plan for these people too.
                      Apparently that plan was for them to die by hanging, lethal injection, firing squad or 'ol Sparky.

                      Look, how much of my tax money should I be willing to have allocated to keep some death row criminal scumbag alive for 50+ years or whatever they live of a "life sentence"? My answer is: NONE!
                      "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." -Robert A. Heinlein

                      "If I accept you as you are, I will make you worse; however, if I treat you as though you are what you are capable of becoming, I will help you become that." -Johann Wolfgang Goethe

                      "Man once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without rudder, is the sport of every wind." -Thomas Jefferson

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Vazkar Asquinol View Post
                        ... Look, how much of my tax money should I be willing to have allocated to keep some death row criminal scumbag alive for 50+ years or whatever they live of a "life sentence"? My answer is: NONE!
                        Then you'll be interested to know that many studies and statistics have shown that in US states with a death penalty it is much cheaper to keep someone incarcerated for their natural life than it is to execute them as the legal fees and other expenses for challenges and appeals to the latter are enormous.

                        Now, if it's truly a contest between one's sacred tax money and the profane on death row the I guess you could argue for removal of all appeals once one has been duly convicted of a capital crime and move to immediate executions. It would save taxpayers enormous sums.

                        "When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands explained."
                        - Mark Twain, notebook entry, 1898.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          I'm always reminded of Gandalf's words to Frodo in Bag-End:

                          "What a pity that Bilbo did not stab the vile creature when he had a chance!"
                          "Pity? It was Pity that stayed his hand. Pity, and Mercy: not too strike without need. And he has been well rewarded, Frodo. Be sure that he took so little hurt from the evil, and escaped in the end, because he began his ownership of the Ring so. With Pity."
                          "I am sorry," said Frodo. "But I am frightened; and I do not feel any pity for Gollum...Do you mean to say that you...have let him live on after all those horrible deeds?...He deserves death."
                          "Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. For even the very wise cannot see all ends. I have not much hope that Gollum can be cured before he dies, but there is a chance of it."
                          Or in the words of William Munny, out of Missouri, killer of women and children: "It's a hell of a thing, killin' a man. Take away all he's got, and all he's ever gonna have."

                          There is a paradox at the heart of the argument that I believe to be insoluble; namely to say on the one hand 'Do not kill' and on the other 'We will kill you if you do'. I mean, durr, even a child can see the illogicality inherent in that equation. I went through this with my daughter when I would smack her for hitting/thumping/kicking/biting when she was growing up and I was aware of the sheer hypocrisy of telling her not to hit and then 'hitting' her in punishment. My position was untenable and I had no choice but to change disciplinary tactics because I was sending her a mixed signal. And so it seems to me also to be with the death penalty.

                          Further, it also seems to me that the desire to kill those that offend us is just the sort of toddler's 'foot-stamping' tantrum you see on a daily basis writ large. The death penalty, whenever and wherever and however it is enacted, should be seen not as our having found a solution to a problem but rather as a massive failure on our part to live up to what is expected of us as human beings.
                          _"For an eternity Allard was alone in an icy limbo where all the colours were bright and sharp and comfortless.
                          _For another eternity Allard swam through seas without end, all green and cool and deep, where distorted creatures drifted, sometimes attacking him.
                          _And then, at last, he had reached the real world – the world he had created, where he was God and could create or destroy whatever he wished.
                          _He was supremely powerful. He told planets to destroy themselves, and they did. He created suns. Beautiful women flocked to be his. Of all men, he was the mightiest. Of all gods, he was the greatest."

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by David Mosley View Post

                            (...)

                            Further, it also seems to me that the desire to kill those that offend us is just the sort of toddler's 'foot-stamping' tantrum you see on a daily basis writ large. The death penalty, whenever and wherever and however it is enacted, should be seen not as our having found a solution to a problem but rather as a massive failure on our part to live up to what is expected of us as human beings.
                            Brilliant, David.
                            Google ergo sum

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Overpopulation is at ther root of all of today's social problems. Not to mention ecological problems. Just as assisted suicide should be done, so should the execution of those members of society who are trying to tear it down.
                              Of course, there will always be those who disagree. I am looking at the human race as a whole and the struggle for survival as a species.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Wonderful sentiments being expressed here. But any judicial syatem makes mistakes. People are incarcerated wrongly all the time because of faulty evidence, stupid cops, arrogant judges, small minded juries, and the mindless roar of the public's lust for revenge. It' one thing to ruin a man's life by mistake, but when you start talking about killing them off, bear in mind

                                YOU could be next.

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