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Bradley Manning allegedly being tortured

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  • Bradley Manning allegedly being tortured

    So I hear and read ... ( - just one example.
    If this is really true, then again the US is trampling on her own credibility, and indeed the entire Western civilisation that has elected the US as the "Leader of the Free World".

    What good are Freedom, Human Rights and Democracy if we, "the West", don't apply the simplest rules of decent behaviour when dealing with those who (we believe) have wronged us?

    I don't want our ideals to be discredited by a bunch of overzealous law and order autists and therefore I have signed this petition:
    Google ergo sum

  • #2
    Avaaz just e-mails me these days, so I've seen this & signed. But thanks for thinking to bring it to this forum, where I clearly failed to do so!
    Thick as wind-blown leaves innumerable, since 1985


    • #3
      La lutte continue

      Like Dylerpillar, Avaaz just e-mails me these days.
      I have seen this and signed too.
      I know I am stupid, but I can not understand how it possible : everybody on web can know it.


      • #4

        I take it this is about the serviceman who allegedly leaked information willingly to wikilinks. My thoughts vary moment to moment...From at least he's not being executed like private Slovick[executed for desertion]. If proved, he's a traitor and what can you expect? the service owns him. The Idea he is being tortured if true is wrong I agree with fully and I do not think that before a trial torture is fair or conducive to a fair trial with the defendent capable of defending himself. What he is enduring is no different than what many imprisoned as criminals or mentally ill people with a civil commitment against thier will who may or may not deserve to be in prison or a mental hospital in lockdown endure on a daily basis -some strapped down for days on end! America is two faced on human rights demanding it from other countries but not looking in the mirror at itself and dealing with it's own failings. Since he is on suicide watch[unofficial to keep him alive to face trial and not to be negligent] a round the clock lockdown is understandable somewhat. They took his underware as he alerted them to the Idea he was quite capable of killing himself with it. His guards are responsible to keep him alive and had to act that way>It's up to the shrinks and courts to find him sane or not or guilty or not. It does seem disgraceful for a untried military crime >but it cannot be as bad or worse than the fatigue and danger our military men have been enduring the past years...they have served,many from oregon,more consecutive tours than ever before.
        Last edited by wiredwullff; 04-11-2011, 09:26 PM.
        "? ",qouz"! ' c. mackay from extraordinary popular delusions and the madness of the crowds.


        • #5
          Addenda to last post

          I forgot to mention I have not admitidly studied the leaked material in depth-If It put lives on line or in more other words I believe the act itself if guilty is wrong but the present situation and punishment should also reflect the information passed>Geraldo the newscaster was ousted from the war zone as he leaked information about where a impending "secret" strike was to take place-this puts our troops in real danger and lives can be lost from these actions.he should have been punished whith jail time[or more]> greed is a awful thing. If guilty he should be punished for passing information and for the information involved. It's really not a good thing to condone for thousands of lives often rely on small bits of info. Wiki leaks is not the enemy but they[the enemy] will read it. What is it his place to decide what can and should be passed unless his intent is sabotage. He should not be tortured though and given living conditions in which he can face trial with full faculties. And the state he was in when he leaked the information should also be considered. How many tours? how old? what kind of sleep and stress levels? what was his job? did he witness Atrocities by our side? etc. I hope justice and fairness prevails with compassion if found guilty.
          Last edited by wiredwullff; 04-11-2011, 08:51 PM.
          "? ",qouz"! ' c. mackay from extraordinary popular delusions and the madness of the crowds.


          • #6
            A last word and a lite aside

            I wanted to clarify the enemy should be considered terrorists, not people with oil or people of islamic faiths. We are a nation built on religious freedom to worship god as we will if it does not harm our neighbors. We can believe in god in a certain fashion, or as a agnostic, or as a aeithiest [spelling?] and all these may serve in our armed forces. I do not believe we as a nation should take by force from another what we want and call ourselves a Human rights leader or a civilized nation. The terrorists were active before 9/11 and even though bush muddied the issue working from misinformation he presented as fact to the nation and bombed a nation whose leader put a death threat on a Texas boys daddy>there was reason enough for a war on terrorists and countries which support them. And now the lite aside: pertaining to geraldo's second trip into pirate waters when captured expecting all the nations armed forces to rush to his rescue once again and the expected media frenzy: There was something in the air that night, your kind of bright;Geraldo-you went back again, to do the same again? GERALDO!?.... think fernando by ABBA!
            Last edited by wiredwullff; 04-11-2011, 09:29 PM.
            "? ",qouz"! ' c. mackay from extraordinary popular delusions and the madness of the crowds.


            • #7

              I did sign the petition.
              "? ",qouz"! ' c. mackay from extraordinary popular delusions and the madness of the crowds.


              • #8
                I think it's a queston of who we believe, a military that views Manning as a traitor and will treat him as badly as they can can get away with, or Manning himself, who took an oath and broke it.

                Do I think the military might be trying to humiliate him and punish him? Probably. Do I believe a single thing Manning says? Not really.


                • #9
                  Is torture the correct thing, regardless of what the perpetrator is accused of?

                  This could easily start a new discussion, and maybe should, about Treason?
                  Can treason be positive?
                  I remember how appalled some American visitors were when I showed them a plaque dedicated to the Memory of German WW2 Deserters who were sentenced to death by the Nazi military tribunals.
                  Google ergo sum


                  • #10
                    While this case has a horrific aspect because of the allegations of torture, it is part of a broader pattern of (over)zealous federal secrecy prosecutions; the Obama administration has taken a harder line about whistleblowers of many types than did the Bush administration. It would appear that on yet another issue in yet another election, the US voting public (yours truly included) has been bamboozled by the ol' bait-and-switch.
                    But whistle-blower advocates are also concerned by another type of case moving forward on Obama's watch. Former NSA official Thomas Drake might serve years in prison, not for leaking intelligence, but for telling the Baltimore Sun that the NSA was allegedly wasting taxpayer money on ineffective technologies. He was charged with mishandling classified material and obstructing justice in April 2010. At publication time, the Justice Department had not responded to queries about specific cases.

                    The prosecutions of those five leakers strike some, like Kucinich, as inconsistent for a President who signed a January 2009 memo to top government executives encouraging more transparency. "The Government should not keep information confidential merely because public officials might be embarrassed by disclosure, because errors and failures might be revealed, or because of speculative or abstract fears," Obama wrote. "President Obama came to office promising a new transparency," Kucinich says. "We are getting the opposite."
                    The article from which the above quote was drawn is here:


                    • #11
                      He should be thanked

                      I think that you all might remember BomberTimmy Mcvie who blew people up! he did the same things when he served that Manning is alleged to have leaked[The rape and murder of civilians]. such solders are not helping win friends over there or helping our cause and often are the result of repeated tours and mental fatigue>they should be pulled out. If Manning did leak the information he must have either been in his right mind knowing he'd likely face punishment[which begs the question did he already report these things? can he prove that?] as it was not reported via military channels or he was not of right mind. The military will likely want to save face and his treatment smacks of it. It looks like they want to break him down abit to help save face with either him being found a unreliable witness [his information was wrong] or mental [mental commitments last as long as the state wants]. he should be for possibly pointing out other Timmy Mcvie types especially if he already tried from within.
                      "? ",qouz"! ' c. mackay from extraordinary popular delusions and the madness of the crowds.


                      • #12
                        What did the english crown think of the colonies independence?

                        Originally posted by L'Etranger View Post
                        Is torture the correct thing, regardless of what the perpetrator is accused of?

                        This could easily start a new discussion, and maybe should, about Treason?
                        Can treason be positive?
                        I remember how appalled some American visitors were when I showed them a plaque dedicated to the Memory of German WW2 Deserters who were sentenced to death by the Nazi military tribunals.
                        Treason! what a word!. As a American [U.s.a.] I am aware that although there were complex issues at the time[like distance to the ruler slowing communication therefore it was a pain in the arse, taxes deemed unfair, oppressive troops!, people who left for religious freedom finding regulation,etc] We as a nation are traitors to the crown [even though we came from all over ,England had ruling rights here]. So did we act out of just and right cause? or are we all degenerate lowlife scumbots? I would like to believe the former ,but still I admire the Crown! and it's useless to argue as there will always be parties on both sides. {Both sides of the argument over a long dead issue and both sides of the Ocean between the two nations involved}."Rebels been Rebels since I don't know when-and all she wants to do is Dance!".
                        Last edited by wiredwullff; 04-13-2011, 12:27 PM.
                        "? ",qouz"! ' c. mackay from extraordinary popular delusions and the madness of the crowds.


                        • #13
                          Remember Vietnam

                          I grew up watching Vietnam on the news seeing things they would not show now graphically[it helped end the "police action" by the dissension it caused at home, a lesson learned hence bush not allowing coffins of the dead much less all and any of the violence being shown. in some respects this case is about this idea of what we can see of the the war].I was gearing up to go as a middle son would without being drafted being from a family filled on both sides with military figures .the war ended . I have been around many vets from Nam and either your cold and unfeeling to the idea of killing and raping civilians or your scarred by what you did watching or participating. Unless attacked or shown to the enemy solders should not be condoned to rape and murder at will, It won't make or keep allies and help win wars. It's not on the agenda.Rape implies the raped as enemy,were they?Did they act in a suspicious manner? did their actions leave time to think or did they just shoot them to be on the safe side with no time to think?? they are still people and civilians. "we are a leader in human rights" If manning tried to report and was kept from reporting within the proper channels and denied it shows a general breaking down of the war machine on this side as it would mean we condone run amok soldering[ if that was what it was].
                          Last edited by wiredwullff; 04-13-2011, 12:04 PM.
                          "? ",qouz"! ' c. mackay from extraordinary popular delusions and the madness of the crowds.


                          • #14
                            US Wikileaks suspect to be moved

                            The US soldier accused of leaking a trove of secret government documents later published by the Wikileaks website is to be moved to a military prison in Kansas, officials have said.

                            Pte First Class Bradley Manning has been held pending court martial at a Marine Corps base in Virginia.

                            His transfer comes amid international concern over his treatment.

                            His supporters say he has been confined to a cell for 23 hours a day and forced regularly to undress.

                            Last week, UN special rapporteur on torture Juan Mendez said US officials had blocked his requests for unmonitored visits to Pte Manning, in part aimed at determining whether he had been mistreated.

                            Ray McGovern, a member of the Bradley Manning Support Network's Advisory Board, said this was "unprecedented".

                            "What it is, pure and simple, is an intimidation technique, lest any of Bradley Manning's colleagues, any of the other people in the armed forces, be tempted to do what Bradley Manning did, and that was to expose war crimes," he told the BBC World Service.

                            At a press conference at the Pentagon on Tuesday, defence department general counsel Jeh Johnson said Pte Manning would be moved imminently to a pre-trial jail at Fort Leavenworth, in the Mid-western US state of Kansas.

                            Mr Johnson and other military officials said the Fort Leavenworth jail - which was opened in January - was better equipped to handle long-term pre-trial stays than the Marine Corps base at Quantico, Virginia.

                            Among other things, the Fort Leavenworth jail has better mental health support and, should officials permit it, better exercise facilities and more opportunities for interaction with other detainees, officials said.

                            "We have assessed this is in Pte Manning's best interest to move him at this juncture in the case," Mr Johnson said.

                            "All things considered, we concluded that going forward this is the best facility for him."

                            Mr Johnson said the transfer should not be interpreted as a criticism of Pte Manning's treatment at Quantico, though he acknowledged senior defence officials had been involved in the process.
                            _"For an eternity Allard was alone in an icy limbo where all the colours were bright and sharp and comfortless.
                            _For another eternity Allard swam through seas without end, all green and cool and deep, where distorted creatures drifted, sometimes attacking him.
                            _And then, at last, he had reached the real world – the world he had created, where he was God and could create or destroy whatever he wished.
                            _He was supremely powerful. He told planets to destroy themselves, and they did. He created suns. Beautiful women flocked to be his. Of all men, he was the mightiest. Of all gods, he was the greatest."


                            • #15
                              I hope he is charged with "treason" and meets the same fate as Pvt. Slovak.

                              Yes, I understand that this is an unpopular stance, and I don't care.

                              People have to abide by their Oaths. Don't take the Oath if you don't plan on honoring it.

                              Treason is "Treason" and as asked in another thread...

                              No, it is never a "good thing".

                              Slippery slope and all that.

                              Swearing an "Oath" means *something*. If not, then... what is the point?

                              We are all savages?
                              "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." -Robert A. Heinlein

                              "If I accept you as you are, I will make you worse; however, if I treat you as though you are what you are capable of becoming, I will help you become that." -Johann Wolfgang Goethe

                              "Man once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without rudder, is the sport of every wind." -Thomas Jefferson